Is this a plothole? Question about the Endless

[Bunyon]

Yeah it was rushed and i wish there was more time spent actually exploring all of the implied tension between the two of them.

I don't disagree that the concept of their relationship was sad, but they spread themselves too thin for me. Having one character die per zone every 30 minutes really deflated things... Especially when they even crammed Krile's parents in there. I feel like it would have made much more of an impact if all the zones were just Erenville and his mom, with Erenville slowly coming to terms with things and Cahciua helping him come to terms with it, up until the climax where they make one last good memory. Instead Erenville is dragged along behind everyone watching the memories of all these people being erased and knowing his mom is coming up. If you try to talk to him almost all of his dialog is just "...". Feels shit

[aTanpopo]

I don't disagree that the concept of their relationship was sad, but they spread themselves too thin for me. Having one character die per zone every 30 minutes really deflated things... Especially when they even crammed Krile's parents in there. I feel like it would have made much more of an impact if all the zones were just Erenville and his mom, with Erenville slowly coming to terms with things and Cahciua helping him come to terms with it, up until the climax where they make one last good memory. Instead Erenville is dragged along behind everyone watching the memories of all these people being erased and knowing his mom is coming up. If you try to talk to him almost all of his dialog is just "...". Feels shit

oh i won't argue with that- it was definitely spread thin. I think the only reason I got emotional was because I'd bigged up the plot in my head, if the game actually told the story better in that area it would have been even more impactful. They should have made the area more about dealing with grief and letting go of people you love- the whole reason Sphene made the place is because she didn't want her people to suffer, so they should just live forever instead. She needed to learn to let go too.

[arstoka]

It might be a little off topic but, they honestly should have taken away the aspect of 'erasing peoples memories of the deceased' from the story and made it so that Living Memory was accessible to every citizen who had lost someone. What better way to reinforce the carelessness of the the citizenry with their lives due to being able to, mostly, cheat death then to come with the gut punch of 'you don't actually die when your body does, you go to Living Memory, we'll see you tomorrow'.

The only other way to really go into the 'protect my people from harm at all costs' would be to go full tilt for Sphene in which she's full on brainwashing / running a dictatorship regarding their memories, using the Regulators to silence out anything that would cause conflict, robbing the citizens of their freedom but perpetuating their ""eternal happiness and safety"".

Either would have been a much more impactful inversion of Wuk Lamat's ideology and a possible moment for her to reflect on what keeping her people's Peace and Happiness actually means and, well, how far she would go to do just that.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I found it emotional even though it was rushed just because of the overall storyline between them. She's seemingly rarely around for much of his childhood, grows up lonely and shunning the company of other people, but Cahcuia fills him with this hope that he can go with her one day if he just finds the golden city. He can't find it and gives up, thinking its just some fairy tale she told him to get him to go touch grass. He's left feeling she never takes into account how he feels, just goes off an enjoys herself and leaves him behind time and time again.

Cut to DT, he finds the City is real, finally finds it and right when he's about to actually go home and maybe get to go on that adventure with his mum that he's always wanted, she dies. And then before he can even process that, there she is standing in front of him as an endless and telling him that he has to delete her. He gets to spend time with her like he wanted to as a child, but only for a moment, because once again she's made all the decisions for him- she'll have fun going on this last little adventure then she'll leave him behind, and this time she's not coming back.

Yeah it was rushed and i wish there was more time spent actually exploring all of the implied tension between the two of them. I think the very quick turn around on being angry at her to deciding to take on her dying wish was a bit too quick, but the overall idea of this relationship really broke my heart tbh and I couldn't help but get emotional.

At that point I was so mad at her for being the mouthpiece of these people's dehumanization so that we could get through the zone without thinking, she was the only Endless I wanted to delete. So by the time I got to that point, I was just like, "Off your mom, Erenville. We're on the clock here. Formatting is almost done. Sure your heart is breaking but she's the happiest she's ever been and given she never cared about your tears all the other times she left you behind, why do you think she'll care now? Just delete her and be done."

Then he devotes the rest of his life to making HER dreams come true.

Imma need a stronger delete button.

It might be a little off topic but, they honestly should have taken away the aspect of 'erasing peoples memories of the deceased' from the story and made it so that Living Memory was accessible to every citizen who had lost someone. What better way to reinforce the carelessness of the the citizenry with their lives due to being able to, mostly, cheat death then to come with the gut punch of 'you don't actually die when your body does, you go to Living Memory, we'll see you tomorrow'.

The only other way to really go into the 'protect my people from harm at all costs' would be to go full tilt for Sphene in which she's full on brainwashing / running a dictatorship regarding their memories, using the Regulators to silence out anything that would cause conflict, robbing the citizens of their freedom but perpetuating their ""eternal happiness and safety"".

Either would have been a much more impactful inversion of Wuk Lamat's ideology and a possible moment for her to reflect on what keeping her people's Peace and Happiness actually means and, well, how far she would go to do just that.

I agree. It's crazy how often I've watched players write a better story than what we got with guesses and wishes.

[aTanpopo]

snip

I mean, you're not wrong lol.
Would have been interesting if part of Living Memory involved people actually standing up to Cahciua instead of just blinding following everything she says. Even when you try and say "there must be another way" you're told no, and pushed to just pick the "yes" option for turning off the place.

If there's one thing I wish happened, it would be Cahciua actually apologising for how her actions have effected her son- I mean when Erenville finally snaps at her before you turn off the terminal she just handwaves it away saying how he should understand that he has to get rid of her endless form, because all living things die and to try and stop that cycle is some kind of crime against nature. In a way, her reply just reinforces what he said- she decided on the course of action everyone would take without considering how it would effect anyone other than herself and then leaves everyone behind to deal with the fallout. She believes the endless shouldn't exist because its unnatural for people to continue living after death, so you should shut them all down. Is there an alternative? It doesn't matter, because she doesn't think they should exist. Even going on her last little adventure with you in the last section is something she's doing to make herself happy- sure you could argue she was doing it so it all ends on a happy note for every, but when it comes to turning off the terminal she's just like "ahh that was the most fun I've ever had! I'm so happy! Welp, time to go!" and acts like Erenville's the one at fault for hesitating at the last moment. She talks about him like he's just this difficult child, not clocking how she could have contributed to that.

Even before that, just before Cahciua takes us to Origenics/Everkeep, Erenville stops her to ask if Oblivion knew about Sphene being an endless (also im gonna use the JP text for this because I think its a better interaction). Cahciua just replies with a kind of unenthusiastic "well... yeah" and when asked if there's a reason why she couldn't tell us she says it would have been confusing and that it would distract us from the more important issue of dealing with Zoraal Ja. She then gets everyone who will be invading Everkeep to set off with her, and the last thing she says before leaving is "Erene'shpa, you will remain here and support everyone ok?" before going off to wait for the rest of you in Heritage Found. She basically just dodges his concerns, decides he will stay behind and then goes off, again.

If they spent more time actually exploring their relationship maybe it wouldn't feel so sudden Erenville decides to take on her dreams at the end. Probably too late to explore in post content too... sadge

[OMGJesuis66]

I also see so many people that talk about how the story is about "letting go", but I feel like that was only introduced in the last zone?? The rest of the story was about war and peace and memory?? Erenville gets lied about his mom being dead and then finds it out at the last minute and then gets dragged along the last zone before being told to get over it and have one last good memory before having to fucking turn her off. And everyone is just like yeah okay. Jesus, I feel like Erenville got fucked over so bad. I don't even know how people found this emotional. Having to essentially kill what is left of your mom after she lies to you and you basically don't even have a moment to yourselves to talk about it, and mom just being like "Why can't you be happy for me, I want to die already".

It's not about "letting go". It's about Legacy.
All the themes were about different approaches over the theme "legacy". The expectation to uphold it, the dismissal of it, the ignorance that comes from it, the status quo of preserving it, the burden of carrying it.

Erenville was indeed a sad moment, it was basically plugging his mom from life support. It was the right thing to do, but devastating for him for sure.

[Bunyon]

I grant you that Legacy as a theme does fit through the expansion, but given how poorly some characters got developed really did not help (there were especially missed opportunities we could've gotten with Zoraal Ja to develop him a bit more which would have served that theme a lot better, in my opinion).

To go back on topic though, my main point was just that it was all too rushed and didn't have to be. Could've defeated Sphene and let Living Memory use up the last of its energies during the patches, come to learn a bit more about this world that was and form some more meaningful bonds with the characters there before shutting them down. Even the world itself would've felt a bit more impactful to shut down had you had time to spend in it before having to do it. You don't even get flight before it's already a grey murky mess. Its hard to feel like you're "letting go" of something when you have hardly any attachment to it.

[Serilyn]

Actually speaking of copying memories reminds me of what happened with G'raha and the scions on the First. When we took the scions and popped them in crystals their visible selves on the First vanished (as their bodies were just aether I think?). But when G'raha copied his soul? memories? into the crystal he still had a physical body on the First, fully functional and with memories etc. So was the real G'raha (that we'd dealt with all through Shadowbringers) the one who died when he turned to crystal, and was the copy of his memories in the blood-crystal vial simply a copy like the Endless? Which we then merged with his our timeline version on the source. So is G'raha essentially like a half Endless because he was copied? But we're sad at the First G'raha dying (does that mean that G'raha went to the aetherial sea on the First and our current one will go to the aetherial sea on the source?), and treat the copied G'raha as if it is him.

It seems a little similar to Otis having his robot version and Endless version as he has a copy yet also still has the original running around and active.