Normal Raids need dps check and enrage time

[hynaku]

Nope they sure don't that's why have you savage. Very tired of ones thinking everything should be ultra-high difficulty and not ever thinking about those that don't like it. If don't think game is hard enough already find another that's harder and quit forcing it on to everyone else. Want it harder change settings to minimum item level and silence echo.

[Somnolence]

2) there needs to be some way to curb the amount of rezzes that can be done in a fight, you shouldn’t be allowed to rezz bot a 7 minute fight into a 22 minute fight just because you have one semi competent rezzer and a whole bunch of people who have no idea what they are doing

I had 29 death Eden Furor (Garuda+Ifrit) raid from roulette yesterday. 6 people completely ignoring mechanics and dying to everything.

Sure, normal content should be tuned for everybody, but being able to brute force it in such absurd manner is too much.

[CaptainLagbeard]

After some rather boring waiting to test it... A8, a.k.a. Brute Justice, on the normal difficulty has an enrage timer of 12 minutes, at which point it just smacks the entire party for instakill damage. That fight with an average group didn't take anywhere near 12 minutes even back during HW when every Job was objectively weaker.

The enrage timer doesn't make it harder, just makes it so that there's a failstate if everyone just keeps dying constantly.

[LynxDubh]

I’m lukewarm on enrages. But, I would love more DPS checks to spice up encounters. Stuff like the cages from Quickthinks A7 really made that fight memorable. Not something that would cause a full raid wipe, but did punish you for not hitting the dps marks.

[LilimoLimomo]

With respect, you're saying a lot of exaggerated, contradictory, and simply untrue things.

you have given all the weight and responsibility to the healers.

While "all" is hyperbolic, it's true that healers carry more of the weight in 8-person content. But also: that's fine. It's healthy for the game to have jobs that have more responsibility and jobs that have less responsibility; different strokes for different folks. But make no mistake: all jobs have responsibility. More on that shortly.

DPS IS TOO EASY, THEY DIE, fail every rotation

They're dying and failing? If DPS are not succeeding, then by definition DPS is not too easy.

and don't take any blame

Why are you blaming people for anything in normal content? That's counterproductive. If things go wrong, just get up and try again. And if someone else is doing the blaming, report them for violating the ToS. Just play the game and have fun, even when you're wiping. Then celebrate when you win as a team.

there is not such a thing as a "dps check" in normal raid.

This is simply not true; plenty of normal raids have DPS checks. Coils, Alexander, Omega, Eden, Panda, and Arcadion all have DPS checks at certain points. They just tend to be pretty easy to clear, which is likely why you haven't even registered them. And that's by design, because if they were actually difficult, you'd rarely get matched with a group capable of clearing them. And then instead of complaining about the division of responsibility, you'd be complaining about being unable to clear without a pre-made.

This is UNFAIR, everyone should be part of the victory

Everyone is already part of the victory. If you don't already understand that, there's an easy way to learn firsthand: queue with a pre-made party for the new raids, have all 4 of your DPS immediately kill themselves, never raise them, and then continue fighting until you achieve victory. You'll notice a meaningful difference in the experience you have, and that difference is because you're lacking what the DPS are contributing to the victory.


In short, everything's fine the way things are, and if you got what you're asking for (enrages) then you would have an even worse time because the average normal raid would never be victorious; the DPS simply wouldn't be good enough. Which is why the devs reserve enrages for Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate content. Thankfully, if you like that kind of thing, you can do the content that already has it.

[Post]

I’m lukewarm on enrages. But, I would love more DPS checks to spice up encounters. Stuff like the cages from Quickthinks A7 really made that fight memorable. Not something that would cause a full raid wipe, but did punish you for not hitting the dps marks.

Yes, I think this sort of thing would fit better into Normal Modes than full on hard-enrage timers for encounters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the purpose of enrage timers is basically to protect players from themselves and doing stupid things like fighting Absolute Virtue from FFXI over 30 hours nonstop, and to prevent cheese compositions like bringing 8 WARs instead of a normal party with jobs that can actually die. Not so much to give difficulty, and for the most part it's fine that the normal modes no longer have hard enrages IMO.

Many fights in this game do have shorter mid-fight dps checks, starting as early as Ifrit Normal's nails, and in fact the ones that don't for trials are sort of the anomalies. Earlier on in the game, more dungeons and raids also had these. We see DT Trial 1 has this while 2 and 3 (and the raids) do not.

Meanwhile, the cool dps checks I can think of are plentiful in Alexander (thought you wouldn't be aware of them if you ran them the first time today, mostly due to players being far too powerful):
a1n kiting and killing adds under missiles before they shrink players and before they impact the arena
a3n every add missed on the whirlpool phase causes damage to the group
a4n not culling adds is a quick way to get too much debuff and explode the raid
a5n more chances to have silly names on adds like Gobbledygroper
a7n without targeted dps cages could kill isolated players
a9n beyond the core mechanic of smelting, faster dps meant you could kill the Jagd Doll in a quadrant that would dip into the slag pool sooner and remove the boss's defensive buff sooner
a10 just has the typical mid-fight dps check with the Gobroller
a11n has E.D.D. an add that blows up if not dealt with reasonably quickly. But, special mention to a11s: E.D.D. has a mid dps check dps check, you have to break his backpack before he finishes a cast or he gets full hp and starts one shotting players.
a12n has the mid-fight dps check (builds LB) and the timegates.

Arguably a6n could go harder on each individual boss in the gauntlet because they're all short dps checks and you could continue from where your group was if you wipe on one of them.

It's also refreshing to see the return of things like ice tombs for failing a mechanic on trial 1; a penalty that dps (and thus all players) can help out with by breaking them, a sort of dps save check. We don't get those too often. I think the last one may have been Memoria Miseria Ex from touching the wall, and that was just a single tap to free a player.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Nobody is asking for the checks to be insanely tight, or the enrage timers to be particularly restrictive...

I haven't been looking at the timer when doing Arcadion, but I'm fairly certain something like a 12-14 minute Enrage timer that we actually used to have would only filter out pretty much the very bottom % of players.
Those timers might just be actually longer than what current Extremes have.

Edit: What people seem to think instantly when talking about adding enrage timers is people expecting like perfect performance from everyone in a normal raid... But the level of playing that actually would be expected is more along the lines of "Fire is bad. Do not stand in fire."

[Reinha]

There should be a dps check in normal raids AND also dungeons, but only to enforce the trinity. It should be so lenient that a group with 2 tanks 2 healers and "4 zombie dps" can easily clear it without ever knowing an enrage timer even exists, but strict enough that a group of only tanks can't.

I also think it's ok for there to be a "zombie role" that all the players with a physical or mental disadvantage can choose and still clear normal content with many deaths. That role definitely should no longer be the healer role. Support roles by their nature require more encounter awareness and attention towards the party, so their design and level of involvement in encounters should be aimed at more capable players who can fully utilize that support capacity and complexity. Dps roles can also be aimed at capable players with plenty of room to optimize while still allowing less capable players to complete content as a dps by not imposing strict dps checks.

[angienessyo]

I had 29 death Eden Furor (Garuda+Ifrit) raid from roulette yesterday. 6 people completely ignoring mechanics and dying to everything.

Sure, normal content should be tuned for everybody, but being able to brute force it in such absurd manner is too much.

I always queue for normal raids as RDM unless I'm with friends and yeah....I've definitely done my share of Eden Furors where I did about 10+ rezzes haha I feel like that probably shouldn't be a thing. I don't think normal needs a very punishing enrage timer, (Stormblood had VERY lenient enrage timers in their normal raids) but the number of times I've dragged groups to the finish line on RDM is a little excessive.

[Colt47]

I'm fine if they add dps checks in normal content but it has to make sense from a narrative perspective and not just a game mechanics perspective. Like if we are having a Rockman Zero 4 scenario where we are atop of a falling meteorite or space station and there is limited time to blow the thing up before it destroys the planet or something, that is where a dps check makes sense. If it is a boss just deciding to finally use his doomsday laser cannon that he magically had in his backpack the entire time to one shot us at the 10 minute mark, that is a bit immersion breaking.

Also, they do have some DPS checks in the game already in normal content, but people don't really notice them. Just about all the Ultima weapon fights have one that is insanely low: I think people have to be literally not pressing any buttons in order to get blown up by them, or the raid has to be mostly dead.