Normal Raids need dps check and enrage time

[PercibelTheren]

I think they're mostly fine. We'll see how things look when people outgear them. Personally, I'm in favor of soft enrages like M4. Clueless healers really struggle to keep the party up on that one if it takes too long.

[LilyPendragon]

DPS check? Maybe a few here and there.
Enrage? Leave it in extremes and savages. It doesn't belong in normals. You already have some saying that this expansion is too hard.

What would the fail state of a dps check be if not an enrage?

[Toutatis]

No. When you get a bad group, it is painful enough. The queues for a new raid are also pretty long atm. It would just make queues longer as several people wouldn't bother anymore.

[LynxDubh]

What would the fail state of a dps check be if not an enrage?

There lots of consequences that don’t equate enrage or direct wipe. Adds exploding into extra damage, adds exploding into nasty debuffs, having it prolong a heavy damage phase that taxes healers, have it pick off or isolate individuals, have it add extra mechanics/aoes while active, have an add that continually tank busts or applies a stacking vuln on the tank. And these are just some past dps checks that I can recall atm.

[Striker44]

I hate to break it to you, but Praetorium -- yes, Praetorium, of the MSQ roulette -- has a DPS check / hard enrage.

Eden's Verse: Refulgence also has a DPS check / hard enrage.

I've actually seen both. In Praetorium, the party will wipe if it doesn't kill the four adds in time. In Refulgence, it turns out two tanks and six dead party members can't quite break the ice in time.

SE is perfectly capable of adding a DPS check / hard enrage to normal content without making everyone scream, "tHiS iS tOo HaRd!?!?!2111!!"

I think we have different concepts of what "DPS check" or "hard enrage" means. The adds you're talking about in Praetorium have minimal HP. They're not a "DPS check" in my opinion - they're a mechanic. If you switch to the adds, you easily take them down. If you tunnel the boss and leave the adds alone, you wipe. Failing isn't because you didn't have the DPS; it's because you ignored the mechanic. I don't recall the thing in Refulgence that you're referring to, but other fights have similar mechanics (e.g. Brute Justice with the four Steam Regulators that pop up in the first phase).

The concept of a "DPS check" or "Hard Enrage" that I've grown accustomed over the years is a test to see if everyone in your party is sufficiently geared and sufficiently skilled. If people are undergeared or providing minimal contributions, you'll wipe even if you're doing the mechanics correctly. Someone in another thread on here took this from the FF Wiki:

"A hard enrage is designed to wipe a group if the battle is not beaten fast enough. The purpose of this is to prevent turtling and undergeared groups from beating the battle."

That's the DPS Check or Hard Enrage I don't see happening in Normal content. Putting a group into a fail state in Normal content because someone is at min ilvl or isn't using all their abilities is just going to cause fractures. Mechanics, on the other hand, seem fine.

There lots of consequences that don’t equate enrage or direct wipe.

Similar to what I was addressing above, the typical meaning of "DPS check" is "you have enough DPS to do this or you wipe." The things you're referring to aren't really "DPS checks," and some of them like the add applying a stacking debuff to the tank is more akin to a soft enrage if anything.

[TaleraRistain]

That’s the problem with current encounter scaling

Going from normal to extreme isn’t a “little bit of a step up” it’s an absolute ocean for many players

Normal raids and alliance raids used to actually be that sort of bridging content but now that dungeons are sleeper mode raids and alliance raids have been pushed down to where dungeons used to be and the gap between normal and extreme continues to grow

There needs to be content between current normals and current extremes and normal raids are the best positioned to be that

I'll agree with you on something like Golbez which really was a bit much for an Extreme but ex1 and ex2 have the same sort of spiciness you see in the normal mode raids but with some forgiveness. There isn't really a huge gap and hopefully they keep up that trend. If you haven't done them, I'd give them a try. They're pretty fun.

[Basteala]

Honestly I like the state of raids right now. And if you want to split hairs, DPS *can* help with the incoming damage. Personal Defensives? Tactician? Magic Barrier? Dismantle? Feint? Addle? Addle anyone? Also seriously, I invite you to try doing these dances as Black Mage. It is not easy.

But no Normal Raids are at the point where one fuckup will probably kill you, and two definitely will. It's a ton of pressure on healers, especially during the first few weeks sure, but this is the dictionary definition of Midcore content: you don't need to be parsing orange or any nonsense like that, but you can't sleepwalk through the fight or you're going to die. Repeatedly.

That said I tried healing M4 blind on the first week. Woof. I respect 99% of healers way more doing this now.

Edit: Now a DPS check on like...an add or something that wipes the raid if people don't burst it down could be interesting. Something where people have to save CDs or resources and burst something down. Kind of the DPS equivalent of a big raidwide aoe that serves as a heal check. That I'm here for.

[AmiableApkallu]

the typical meaning of "DPS check" is "you have enough DPS to do this or you wipe." The things you're referring to aren't really "DPS checks,"

The things I referred to are quite literally, "you have enough DPS to do this or you wipe."

You have enough DPS to kill the four adds in the Gaius fight in the allotted time, or you wipe.

You have enough DPS to break the ice in the Refulgence (Normal) in the allotted time, or you wipe.

Or to add to my original list: You have enough DPS to kill the six adds in the Lv.89 trial, or you wipe.

The fact that failure takes a heroic amount of incompetence at pushing buttons or an inordinate amount of the party tanking the floor does not take away from the fact that there exists a requirement to meet a particular DPS threshold — which is all what a DPS check is. They might be easy DPS checks, but they are still DPS checks.

[AnotherPerson]

I'm okay with soft enrages like in M4's ending phase. Where if you take too long, the boss will start ramping up their damage consistently to the point where healers will eventually run out of resources and the party cannot continue. It exists in old fights like Nidhogg too through Akh Morn increasing stacks each time. It gives fights some pressure and helps with storytelling for bosses that are pushing you to their limits.

I dislike hard DPS checks / hard enrage. Using a pass-fail check isn't fun to me. The games I played with hard DPS checks in normal mode was hated on by majority of the players in the community because it eventually became a huge gatekeeping mechanic that discourages rewarding moment to moment decision making in less-than-ideal situations. Hard enrages is effectively: You must do XYZ correctly and you can't fail it or it's a wipe. It somewhat defeats the purpose of raises and getting weakness/brink of death debuffs. It's not a game if you aren't allowed to mess up. It just becomes a strict dance and execution with less ways for creativity and skill expression. I see that kind of thing belonging more into Savage than in Normal Raids. Not to mention, if the boss has a skill that can immediately wipe you out with a hard enrage... the fight would've been over if they just used it at the start of the fight and didn't use it on you because... reasons. Feels like extremely shoddy storytelling to me.

I'd wouldn't mind seeing DPS checks with checks that end up not killing the party, but instead applied a damage down/negative debuff when failing it. I personally rather see stuff like a Heal check during a DPS check instead. Something like in Warqor Lar Dor where you want to have good DPS to not stay in that phase for too long as it burdens your healers while healing the stack. I feel like this is the best case where it combines both a soft enrage and a DPS check into one mechanic.

[Cyllia]

2.0 player here we've been wanting a gate keeping system for years SQ E said no and alot of us left or the very few who stayed only do new content then dip.

It won't work we've tried, asked, begged, made multiple forums about it etc. The answer is NO live with it or move on. It's not your game, It's Yoshi-Ps game.

On a side note your sub fee is worthless compared to how many people who would quit because of it so either make your own game or move on an play another game/MMO.