Normal Raids need dps check and enrage time

[LilimoLimomo]

With respect, you are saying that DPS right now are useful only to hasten the kill and it's true.

And Healers are only useful to keep DPS alive. Both roles need each other, and you're throwing rocks in a glass house.

I'm asking that everyone is challenged.

If your goal is for everyone to be challenged, then by your own admission your goal has been met. If DPS are dying, if DPS are having trouble doing their rotations, then they are clearly being challenged. You're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Nobody is asking for the checks to be insanely tight, or the enrage timers to be particularly restrictive...

I haven't been looking at the timer when doing Arcadion, but I'm fairly certain something like a 12-14 minute Enrage timer that we actually used to have would only filter out pretty much the very bottom % of players.
Those timers might just be actually longer than what current Extremes have.

Edit: What people seem to think instantly when talking about adding enrage timers is people expecting like perfect performance from everyone in a normal raid... But the level of playing that actually would be expected is more along the lines of "Fire is bad. Do not stand in fire."

[Reinha]

There should be a dps check in normal raids AND also dungeons, but only to enforce the trinity. It should be so lenient that a group with 2 tanks 2 healers and "4 zombie dps" can easily clear it without ever knowing an enrage timer even exists, but strict enough that a group of only tanks can't.

I also think it's ok for there to be a "zombie role" that all the players with a physical or mental disadvantage can choose and still clear normal content with many deaths. That role definitely should no longer be the healer role. Support roles by their nature require more encounter awareness and attention towards the party, so their design and level of involvement in encounters should be aimed at more capable players who can fully utilize that support capacity and complexity. Dps roles can also be aimed at capable players with plenty of room to optimize while still allowing less capable players to complete content as a dps by not imposing strict dps checks.

[Colt47]

I'm fine if they add dps checks in normal content but it has to make sense from a narrative perspective and not just a game mechanics perspective. Like if we are having a Rockman Zero 4 scenario where we are atop of a falling meteorite or space station and there is limited time to blow the thing up before it destroys the planet or something, that is where a dps check makes sense. If it is a boss just deciding to finally use his doomsday laser cannon that he magically had in his backpack the entire time to one shot us at the 10 minute mark, that is a bit immersion breaking.

Also, they do have some DPS checks in the game already in normal content, but people don't really notice them. Just about all the Ultima weapon fights have one that is insanely low: I think people have to be literally not pressing any buttons in order to get blown up by them, or the raid has to be mostly dead.

[lolnotacat]

All I'll say is I love the soft enrage of Wicked Thunder, particularly because I main healer. I've always hated hard enrages. "Hurrr you hit 10 minutes GG." But I love soft enrages that are worked into the mechanics, story, and characters.

tl;dr: More soft enrages like Wicked Thunder in normal.

[CaptainLagbeard]

All I'll say is I love the soft enrage of Wicked Thunder, particularly because I main healer. I've always hated hard enrages. "Hurrr you hit 10 minutes GG." But I love soft enrages that are worked into the mechanics, story, and characters.'

It'd be more like "After ineffectively bashing your face against the boss for 15 minutes, rocks fall and everyone dies."

[LaylaTsarra]

After trying a few times the 4 normal raids, I came to a conclusion:

you have given all the weight and responsibility to the healers.

Yes, a very noisy and -PARTLY right- group said healing was too easy (and I feel that too, in EW was a walk in the park), but now I say something different.

DPS IS TOO EASY, THEY DIE, fail every rotation and don't take any blame because there is not such a thing as a "dps check" in normal raid.

This is UNFAIR, everyone should be part of the victory and we don't have to win just because the healer is perfect and we have 4 zombies raising over and over until the boss die.

Forum needs a reality check. Please go play another game.

[alfarini]

No this is just insane, what happens if all four dps queue in and they are all new?? You gonna start berating them about not doing good enough? Hell no, enrage stays in EX savage and ultimates for a reason. Forcing harder requirements into normal content where it can appear in a roulette is just crazy.

Some days I don't want to go all out on a fight, I won't die at all but I don't do like 1/4 my rotation as I should or usually would.

[hydralus]

No this is just insane, what happens if all four dps queue in and they are all new?? You gonna start berating them about not doing good enough?

Yeah? Why not? Tanks have to deal with being told to pull more and use their mitigations or healers to do more DPS while keeping people alive, don't see why DPS should be getting a clear pass to use 3 buttons and be happy with it.

[Striker44]

Yeah? Why not? Tanks have to deal with being told to pull more and use their mitigations or healers to do more DPS while keeping people alive, don't see why DPS should be getting a clear pass to use 3 buttons and be happy with it.

Difference there is whether or not tanks pull more, and whether or not healers do more DPS - neither of those affect the ability of the party to complete the content, all that changes is the amount of time it takes. Putting a hard enrage on the DPS potentially makes a run entirely unable to be completed.

I don't see DPS checks or hard enrages happening in Normal content. Remember, the DF and Roulette systems exist precisely so that new players see their queues filled. Start including mechanics that potentially create a "fail state" for such groups, and you'll start seeing the "better" players rely on pre-mades to do their roulettes instead of grouping with potential first-timers, which undermines a key design concept. Keep the legitimate potential for "fail states" in higher-level content.