Normal Raids need dps check and enrage time

[CaptainLagbeard]

stop trying to make normal content harder.
You want harder content? Play the harder content.
There's Savage and Ultimate encounters for a reason.

It's not really about making normal content harder, just making it so that you can't clear it by just outlasting the boss and people will have to actually contribute to the fight.

[Chasingstars]

It's not really about making normal content harder, just making it so that you can't clear it by just outlasting the boss and people will have to actually contribute to the fight.

What you want is type of enrage where the boss will inevitability reach the stage where the players auto-lose, not "kill the adds before the boss reaches 100" enrage. Which is making the content harder as there is less room for screw ups. Savage and extreme are right over there if you crave that kind of content.

[CaptainLagbeard]

What you want is type of enrage where the boss will inevitability reach the stage where the players auto-lose, not "kill the adds before the boss reaches 100" enrage. Which is making the content harder as there is less room for screw ups. Savage and extreme are right over there if you crave that kind of content.

Basically yes. And as stated earlier in the thread, they actually used to have that in HW and at least in Deltascape in SB... And the enrage timer in Deltascape is somewhere around 14 minutes.
A fight won't usually last even 10 unless the death count's reaching triple digits.

[Supersnow845]

stop trying to make normal content harder.
You want harder content? Play the harder content.
There's Savage and Ultimate encounters for a reason.

If you want casual content to be as much of a Faceroll as it currently is where one semi competent rezzer can drag an entire party around for hours then we desperately need content between this and extreme because there is a large subset of players who either don’t have the time or motivation to actually go into PF to do extreme or savage but can Faceroll current normal. This is what alliance and normal raids used to be, actual bridging content

This game has a terrible problem with the gulf in content difficulty that many players find themselves in, either by being good enough to blast through normal but still struggle with extreme or people like me who are hard burnt out on savage because their role is a dumpster fire but still wants some measure of engagement in the game

[hynaku]

Nope they sure don't that's why have you savage. Very tired of ones thinking everything should be ultra-high difficulty and not ever thinking about those that don't like it. If don't think game is hard enough already find another that's harder and quit forcing it on to everyone else. Want it harder change settings to minimum item level and silence echo.

[CaptainLagbeard]

After some rather boring waiting to test it... A8, a.k.a. Brute Justice, on the normal difficulty has an enrage timer of 12 minutes, at which point it just smacks the entire party for instakill damage. That fight with an average group didn't take anywhere near 12 minutes even back during HW when every Job was objectively weaker.

The enrage timer doesn't make it harder, just makes it so that there's a failstate if everyone just keeps dying constantly.

[LynxDubh]

I’m lukewarm on enrages. But, I would love more DPS checks to spice up encounters. Stuff like the cages from Quickthinks A7 really made that fight memorable. Not something that would cause a full raid wipe, but did punish you for not hitting the dps marks.

[Post]

I’m lukewarm on enrages. But, I would love more DPS checks to spice up encounters. Stuff like the cages from Quickthinks A7 really made that fight memorable. Not something that would cause a full raid wipe, but did punish you for not hitting the dps marks.

Yes, I think this sort of thing would fit better into Normal Modes than full on hard-enrage timers for encounters.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the purpose of enrage timers is basically to protect players from themselves and doing stupid things like fighting Absolute Virtue from FFXI over 30 hours nonstop, and to prevent cheese compositions like bringing 8 WARs instead of a normal party with jobs that can actually die. Not so much to give difficulty, and for the most part it's fine that the normal modes no longer have hard enrages IMO.

Many fights in this game do have shorter mid-fight dps checks, starting as early as Ifrit Normal's nails, and in fact the ones that don't for trials are sort of the anomalies. Earlier on in the game, more dungeons and raids also had these. We see DT Trial 1 has this while 2 and 3 (and the raids) do not.

Meanwhile, the cool dps checks I can think of are plentiful in Alexander (thought you wouldn't be aware of them if you ran them the first time today, mostly due to players being far too powerful):
a1n kiting and killing adds under missiles before they shrink players and before they impact the arena
a3n every add missed on the whirlpool phase causes damage to the group
a4n not culling adds is a quick way to get too much debuff and explode the raid
a5n more chances to have silly names on adds like Gobbledygroper
a7n without targeted dps cages could kill isolated players
a9n beyond the core mechanic of smelting, faster dps meant you could kill the Jagd Doll in a quadrant that would dip into the slag pool sooner and remove the boss's defensive buff sooner
a10 just has the typical mid-fight dps check with the Gobroller
a11n has E.D.D. an add that blows up if not dealt with reasonably quickly. But, special mention to a11s: E.D.D. has a mid dps check dps check, you have to break his backpack before he finishes a cast or he gets full hp and starts one shotting players.
a12n has the mid-fight dps check (builds LB) and the timegates.

Arguably a6n could go harder on each individual boss in the gauntlet because they're all short dps checks and you could continue from where your group was if you wipe on one of them.

It's also refreshing to see the return of things like ice tombs for failing a mechanic on trial 1; a penalty that dps (and thus all players) can help out with by breaking them, a sort of dps save check. We don't get those too often. I think the last one may have been Memoria Miseria Ex from touching the wall, and that was just a single tap to free a player.

[LilimoLimomo]

With respect, you're saying a lot of exaggerated, contradictory, and simply untrue things.

you have given all the weight and responsibility to the healers.

While "all" is hyperbolic, it's true that healers carry more of the weight in 8-person content. But also: that's fine. It's healthy for the game to have jobs that have more responsibility and jobs that have less responsibility; different strokes for different folks. But make no mistake: all jobs have responsibility. More on that shortly.

DPS IS TOO EASY, THEY DIE, fail every rotation

They're dying and failing? If DPS are not succeeding, then by definition DPS is not too easy.

and don't take any blame

Why are you blaming people for anything in normal content? That's counterproductive. If things go wrong, just get up and try again. And if someone else is doing the blaming, report them for violating the ToS. Just play the game and have fun, even when you're wiping. Then celebrate when you win as a team.

there is not such a thing as a "dps check" in normal raid.

This is simply not true; plenty of normal raids have DPS checks. Coils, Alexander, Omega, Eden, Panda, and Arcadion all have DPS checks at certain points. They just tend to be pretty easy to clear, which is likely why you haven't even registered them. And that's by design, because if they were actually difficult, you'd rarely get matched with a group capable of clearing them. And then instead of complaining about the division of responsibility, you'd be complaining about being unable to clear without a pre-made.

This is UNFAIR, everyone should be part of the victory

Everyone is already part of the victory. If you don't already understand that, there's an easy way to learn firsthand: queue with a pre-made party for the new raids, have all 4 of your DPS immediately kill themselves, never raise them, and then continue fighting until you achieve victory. You'll notice a meaningful difference in the experience you have, and that difference is because you're lacking what the DPS are contributing to the victory.


In short, everything's fine the way things are, and if you got what you're asking for (enrages) then you would have an even worse time because the average normal raid would never be victorious; the DPS simply wouldn't be good enough. Which is why the devs reserve enrages for Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate content. Thankfully, if you like that kind of thing, you can do the content that already has it.

[Mr_Gyactus]

With respect, you're saying a lot of exaggerated, contradictory, and simply untrue things.

Everyone is already part of the victory. If you don't already understand that, there's an easy way to learn firsthand: queue with a pre-made party for the new raids, have all 4 of your DPS immediately kill themselves, never raise them, and then continue fighting until you achieve victory. You'll notice a meaningful difference in the experience you have, and that difference is because you're lacking what the DPS are contributing to the victory.

In short, everything's fine the way things are, and if you got what you're asking for (enrages) then you would have an even worse time because the average normal raid would never be victorious; the DPS simply wouldn't be good enough. Which is why the devs reserve enrages for Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate content. Thankfully, if you like that kind of thing, you can do the content that already has it.

With respect, you are saying that DPS right now are useful only to hasten the kill and it's true.
DPS haven't a key role, and having them alive or moping the ground makes no real difference.
The problem, as I read from many replies, is that they are aware of this, abuse it, and they want to continue to abuse it.

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Yoshida said something like "this is a test patch (for the content difficulty)". It's true and everyone should be tested.
Enrage is not a good solution? Ok, fine it's not a good solution, throw the enrage in the bin. Another thing will do the trick then.

I'm not running away from the challenge and I'm not asking a SAVAGE difficulty in normal content (or are you implying that healers right now are playing a savage level in normal content?),
I'm asking that everyone is challenged.