PLD viable for speed runs?

[Stufoo]

WAIT, WHAT?! how do you test enmity acurately

SE has said that 1 damage done = 1 point of enmity. You can measure this exactly by going out and provoking something, and having a gatherer/crafter wrist flick something a whole bunch to find the exact enmity value. There is no enmity decay for damage taken and no decay over time, so eventually those wrist flicks will over take your enmity even if it takes a long time, and however many wrist flicks it took, minus one, is how much enmity Provoke gives.

[Aceofspades]

SE has said that 1 damage done = 1 point of enmity. You can measure this exactly by going out and provoking something, and having a gatherer/crafter wrist flick something a whole bunch to find the exact enmity value. There is no enmity decay for damage taken and no decay over time, so eventually those wrist flicks will over take your enmity even if it takes a long time, and however many wrist flicks it took, minus one, is how much enmity Provoke gives.

hmm thats interesting , I now have a new test to confirm, if this is true then its possable to prove that enmity materia is most usefull in controlling gradual enmity build , like what a dd would experiance when slowly catching the enmity cealing set by the tank. That being said , the enmity cealing will always be the same, meaning that if the DDs do not dump enmity ocasionally then they will still catch the tank reguardless, wich gose back to my point. you dont need enmity gear to keep hate , especially if your dds know how to dump enmity and you as a tank know how to effciently attain enmity w/o sacraficeing any deffensive stats.

At anyrate, ty for that info, opens a whole new door when testing gear, and confirming some comon mis conceptions. seriously, ty

[Stufoo]

you dont need enmity gear to keep hate

You need everything to "tank well". It's not about simply "keeping hate", when you have really well geared black mages, they will be pushing that enmity threshold you set no matter what, even with perfectly cooled down quelling, freeze, and chameleon. You need enmity gear, not to win, but to win faster because your DDs aren't on a leash. I understand where you are coming from, doing pick up groups with objectively bad damage dealers, you probably don't feel the need for enmity. Good damage dealers will be held back if you are not wearing enmity gear and meticulously keeping up with your enmity abilities.

It's also not about setting up one perfect set of gear, as you'll use many. You can use physical defense/enmity set (holy shield, meld body/darklight) or DD gear and just play warrior on princess, you should have an HP/enmity set for Chimera, HP/defense gear on coco, pure enmity/dd gear for miser, etc. If you aren't switching your gear/job for every single boss you are not being efficient, period. That's why you tanked Princess so well with your one DEF+ set and got absolutely thrashed because you wore no HP for a MAGICAL DAMAGE BOSS. Not every boss is Coincounter.

[Aceofspades]

You need everything to "tank well". It's not about simply "keeping hate", when you have really well geared black mages, they will be pushing that enmity threshold you set no matter what, even with perfectly cooled down quelling, freeze, and chameleon. You need enmity gear, not to win, but to win faster because your DDs aren't on a leash. I understand where you are coming from, doing pick up groups with objectively bad damage dealers, you probably don't feel the need for enmity. Good damage dealers will be held back if you are not wearing enmity gear and meticulously keeping up with your enmity abilities.

It's also not about setting up one perfect set of gear, as you'll use many. You can use physical defense/enmity set (holy shield, meld body/darklight) or DD gear and just play warrior on princess, you should have an HP/enmity set for Chimera, HP/defense gear on coco, pure enmity/dd gear for miser, etc. If you aren't switching your gear/job for every single boss you are not being efficient, period. That's why you tanked Princess so well with your one DEF+ set and got absolutely thrashed because you wore no HP for a MAGICAL DAMAGE BOSS. Not every boss is Coincounter.

Hmm, if you were to be completely un biased , you should probably mention that no magical attack without reasonable mitigation, can one shot a tank, wich is the only real purpose behind stacking HP, other then that, a large HP pool offers far little other then a bigger bar for healers to fill. The only attack I know of that can one shot a tank with full HP is 100 tonze, a physical attack.

[Raze]

Hmm, if you were to be completely un biased , you should probably mention that no magical attack without reasonable mitigation, can one shot a tank, wich is the only real purpose behind stacking HP, other then that, a large HP pool offers far little other then a bigger bar for healers to fill.

And as a spirits within mod, and if you didn't have that hp in the first place you'd need a raise instead of a cure, resetting your super duper enmity you built. I also try to cure myself ^^

A bigger HP pool has absolutely nothing to do with your healer's MP unless you don't know what you're doing, since tanks generally like to keep their life bar high when they fight things.

[Aceofspades]

And as a spirits within mod, and if you didn't have that hp in the first place you'd need a raise instead of a cure, resetting your super duper enmity you built. I also try to cure myself ^^

A bigger HP pool has absolutely nothing to do with your healer's MP unless you don't know what you're doing, since tanks generally like to keep their life bar high when they fight things.

you mis understand how spirits within works then, it dosent base damage off of total HP, it bases damage off of total CURRENT hp, hense, your hp bar % not how much hp you have, soo if your hp bar is full compaired to half full you will do the most damage possable with your current dps set up, having a higher HP pull dose nothing to add damage to your Spirits within combo, already tested it, pld with almost 1k more hp then me did same or LESS damage on avg, with full hp. As far as needing a raise, I need a raise far less then my fellow plds who stack hp. I promise you, Chimera can hit you faster then your WHMs can heal you, soo the only way to help your whms keep you alive is to take less damage per a hit. Sorry to say but your logic dosent fit , mainly because you dont understand the mechanics of pld.

[Raze]

you mis understand how spirits within works then, it dosent base damage off of total HP, it bases damage off of total CURRENT hp, hense, your hp bar % not how much hp you have, soo if your hp bar is full compaired to half full you will do the most damage possable with your current dps set up, having a higher HP pull dose nothing to add damage to your Spirits within combo, already tested it, pld with almost 1k more hp then me did same or LESS damage on avg, with full hp. As far as needing a raise, I need a raise far less then my fellow plds who stack hp. I promise you, Chimera can hit you faster then your WHMs can heal you, soo the only way to help your whms keep you alive is to take less damage per a hit. Sorry to say but your logic dosent fit , mainly because you dont understand the mechanics of pld.

You do realize there is a spell check on forums right?

Yeah, mentioning that spirits has a HP modifier, that makes me not understand the mechanics. Because, it would seem to me that if you had a higher base HP that each hit by chimera(or whoever) would decrease by a smaller percent (I know you love those percentages!). I realize chimera hits pretty decently hard, but realistically if you're doing your job you should be able to tank it, with it glued to you, HP belt or not, you'd need a decent enmity build to even make a difference if you get a rotation down that doesn't end you face down in dirt. And btw it sounds like you play with a lot of PLDs who die a lot so I'll be taking your opinion with a grain of salt and discontinue talking to you ^^

[Stufoo]

Sorry to say but your logic dosent fit , mainly because you dont understand the mechanics of pld.

The most irony ever. Hey Ace, have you beaten either dungeon yet?

It's not the healer's fault you're getting slammed with breaths in inappropriate gear and they can't heal you fast enough. Get some hp buffer for Chim (def is fine on princess, NOT CHIMERA) and learn to use your abilities to mitigate instead of relying on minimal gains from DEF gear carrying you through an easy fucking pansy boss like princess.

And btw it sounds like you play with a lot of PLDs who die a lot so I'll be taking your opinion with a grain of salt and discontinue talking to you ^^

He is the paladin that dies a lot and you've made the correct call. He's pretty stupidly obstinate about things so I don't think paladin will ever click for him.

[Tman]

already tested it, pld with almost 1k more hp then me did same or LESS damage on avg, with full hp.

Our test sample was far too small to formulate a concrete and definitive opinnion of the matter. At best we did 10 SW's, a mere fraction of what could be considered an observation at best.

it dosent base damage off of total HP, it bases damage off of total CURRENT hp, hense, your hp bar % not how much hp you have, soo if your hp bar is full compaired to half full you will do the most damage possable with your current dps set up, having a higher HP pull dose nothing to add damage to your Spirits within combo

While max hp may not DIRECTLY (unconfirmed as far as I know) increase SW's damage, it will INDIRECTLY increase the damage, this I can prove with a little simple logic and math.

Bare with me here; If Ace is correct in his assumption that its based off current hp %, physical fights he would take 228 dmg per hit roughly. Using me as the other pld tank in a physical fight, i'd take 628 dmg per hit. These numbers would then equate to:

Ace's hp (3800 roughly)-228 dmg per hit=6% lost, or 94% hp remaining
My hp (4800 roughly)-624 dmg per hit=13% lost, or 87% remaining.

By this Ace's SW would hit harder than mine, if modified directly off hp % and not max hp.

However, INDIRECTLY speaking, I can take a bit more dmg than he can to push my hp to that 6% mark, all assuming Ace is correct. However lets look at a magical fight.

Ace's hp (3800 roughly)-1444 dmg per magical hit=38% lost, or 62% remaining
My hp (4800 roughly)-1440 dmg per magical hit=30% lost, or 70% remaining (modified for simplicity of %)

This tells me even more so that there is no 1 size fits all armor set; def n vit has its uses, as does hp. And also proves that while assuming Ace is correct, hp will still boost enmity through SW albeit indirectly.