Please add positionals back to Twin Snakes/True Strike on Monk! Now is the best time!

[Lorika]

It's this reductive attitude that's partly to blame why we have what we have now. We could also remove all abilities bar one and call it "Resolve". You press it, you win. "You are doing the best possible damage right now and you want to add another mechanic to get the same result".

Well, yes. I'd like to play a game. That's the point.

No it's not.
It's the attitude of wanting useless annoying mechanics that is bad for this game.

If the dev was listenning to all the people saying : keep positional, keep greased lightning, keep twin Snake buff, keep demolish dot etc... etc... Monk job would still be locked in 2.0 and nobody except a handfull of hardcore fan would play it.

The actual Monk, at last, have now a clean gameplay that feel more modern (FFXIV wise), it's not perfect and yeah it miss maybe one or two things to make it "complete".... but thoses things are surely not 10+ years old meh and annoying gameplay mechanic that the FFXIV postional are actually.

In fact, FFXIV lack a thing that most of other MMO use : Real CC.... And it would be nice to have some Knockback, Knockdown or stun instead of simple and lazy potency buff on the positional.
Like that, it's up to you to use them or not depending of the situation, and this would add complexity and flexibility, not just some more number for excell spreadsheet maniac.

[Ramiee]

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

[Lorika]

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

"Homogenization" doesn't exist. Some role share core mechanics (Tank and healer) but past level 50 all the job have they own gameplay, they own rotation.

Here a good exemple to illustrate that : Take 2 racing car with the same engine... Will they have the same performance and will you pilot them the same way? No you won't because each use different part and have different settings.... They just share the same engine.

Having a common base doesn't mean homogenization.

[Unyqua]

Surprisingly there's 6 melee jobs out there. What if maybe just 1 of these jobs is positional focused and if you don't like that gameplay loop you could maybe play one of the other 5 melee jobs out there to play instead of demanding one changes to suit you.
It's really absurd to me how many jobs there are in this game yet people still demand them to change for them. From DRK begging for TBN to lose mana cost to SCHs begging for ED to be removed there's so many jobs out there to play instead.

No wonder the jobs are so homogenised and boring now, the Devs listened to people begging for anything that's unique to a jobs play style to be neutered and removed.

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.
As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.
In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.
That in my opinion is way to much punishment, especially for not pros and it makes the job less accessible.

Adding like 4 buffs/debuffs and positionals you have to track with the current crappy UI is not really imaginative.

[Shurrikhan]

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.

Weaponskills, spells, abilities, gauges, relative uptime increasers, etc., aren't unique to any job, either; each provides an avenue for differentiation. By removing them on the basis that "everyone has them anyways," you end up with increasing homogeneity (at its extreme, just auto-attacks.

As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.

If positionals are removed in the only situation where they could otherwise limit encounter design... they literally do not (cannot) limit encounter design except by enticing the developers not to make EVERY boss a wall boss, which "limits" only complacency/stagnancy.

In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.

In the past no combo chain had positionals, only combo starters. You could not be forced to restart your combo because you literally had no combo yet; you were forced merely to restart the attempt to get one. The difference between a combo-finisher failing to trigger its combo bonus and a combo-opener failing to trigger its following skill's combo bonus is night and day, but the requirement to land the correct positional to get one's combo bonus was removed before any positionals were yet attached to anything but the opener.

Adding like 4 buffs/debuffs and positionals you have to track with the current crappy UI is not really imaginative.

You don't track positionals with the UI, unless you count seeing the enemy as "UI".

(Yes, I've left as irrelevant what has no relevance to positionals and therefore the thread.)

[Unyqua]

Weaponskills, spells, abilities, gauges, relative uptime increasers, etc., aren't unique to any job, either; each provides an avenue for differentiation. By removing them on the basis that "everyone has them anyways," you end up with increasing homogeneity (at its extreme, just auto-attacks.

I never said that they should remove them. I rather would have them focus on adding job mechanics that are unique to that one job in a way that is fun and fits the job fantasy.

In the past no combo chain had positionals, only combo starters. You could not be forced to restart your combo because you literally had no combo yet; you were forced merely to restart the attempt to get one. The difference between a combo-finisher failing to trigger its combo bonus and a combo-opener failing to trigger its following skill's combo bonus is night and day, but the requirement to land the correct positional to get one's combo bonus was removed before any positionals were yet attached to anything but the opener.

Well i did not play in the Expansions before EW so my informations are just secondhand. I only know that it was way more punishing.

And this is another point. Many players joined in the post ShB era. How will you sell more positionals to those players.

You don't track positionals with the UI, unless you count seeing the enemy as "UI".

I see the target ring as a UI element and sometimes its hidden by the enemy model.

Also to account for my buff/debuff comment, the OP was pointing out that with the removal of the Dot and Damage buff it would be fun to add more positionals.

[Mikey_R]

Well i did not play in the Expansions before EW so my informations are just secondhand. I only know that it was way more punishing.

History lesson then. Monk's positionals were always as they are now, just a damage loss, it didn't prevent you from progressing through the forms.

Dragoon on the other hand had 2 weaponskills, Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive that had positional requirements. Heavy Thrust was a standalone weaponskill that provided a damage buff if you hit the enemy from the flank, if you missed the flank, you didn't get the buff. Impulse Drive was the combo starter for the Chaos Thrust combo (Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust), Miss the rear positional on Impulse Drive, it then didn't combo into Disembowel (which was a piercing resistance down at the time). Before the end of ARR, heavy Thrust was changed so that the buff was always applied, but you lost potency and Impulse Drive lost the positional requirement entirely and it was instead placed onto Chaos Thrust, as it is now.

And this is another point. Many players joined in the post ShB era. How will you sell more positionals to those players.

If you haven't tried it, how can you say you don't like it. You never know, it might be fun. We aren't saying to give every melee a ton of positionals either, but instead, provide a broad spectrum so that if you don't like positionals, there will be a melee job that suits your needs.

[Ramiee]

"Homogenization" doesn't exist. Some role share core mechanics (Tank and healer) but past level 50 all the job have they own gameplay, they own rotation.

Here a good exemple to illustrate that : Take 2 racing car with the same engine... Will they have the same performance and will you pilot them the same way? No you won't because each use different part and have different settings.... They just share the same engine.

Having a common base doesn't mean homogenization.

"Homogenisation doesn't exist" this game has no sustained damage jobs, they're all burst jobs. Enshroud and Reawaken are the same move, every single job is designed around having a combo to build up a resource and to spend it.
Every single job in the game is exactly the same for god sake play a different MMO once and you'll see that not all MMO class design revolves around builder spender burst classes.

The thing is positionals are not unique to one melee job. Every melee job has positionals and they all have their effect. They add a little edge for players that manage to hit them.
As soon the moment comes when you have to fight a wall boss they are pointless anyways. Its a limiting mechanic in encounter design.
In the past there was more of a point to positionals ... if you fail your positional you fail your combo and you have to start again.
That in my opinion is way to much punishment, especially for not pros and it makes the job less accessible.

But clearly people still enjoy positionals which is why I think having one job having positionals is a good idea and remove them from the rest and monk which is the least busy melee is the best suited for them. Monk desperately needs some form of management with the buffs removed and having positionals fit this management good, doesn't even need to be damage it could give you chakra or something for your oGCD. Going out here for a second but I think historically wall bosses have been the worst bosses in the game I think literally the only wall boss thats ever had universal positivety was Shinryu EX, I would pray that monk becomes positional focused because then we would have less of these boring bosses. Also not every job needs to be accessible, we don't need BLM to get a SMN rework just because more people will play it, VPR and RPR are simple melee jobs for people to play is it so much to ask to have a hard job for people who want to be challenged?

[Unyqua]

"Homogenisation doesn't exist" this game has no sustained damage jobs, they're all burst jobs. Enshroud and Reawaken are the same move, every single job is designed around having a combo to build up a resource and to spend it.
Every single job in the game is exactly the same for god sake play a different MMO once and you'll see that not all MMO class design revolves around builder spender burst classes.

Its probably because they designed the combat around the 2m window. So you have to align you hardhitters in a way you will catch this window.
So in the end they will design all classes to fit that pattern. I know its not that popular with all people, but its probably the easier way to balance stuff and i must they the FF14 team does a better job in balancing stuff than other MMOs.

Sustained damage class designs play like a pepper mill or a barrel organ.

But clearly people still enjoy positionals which is why I think having one job having positionals is a good idea and remove them from the rest and monk which is the least busy melee is the best suited for them. Monk desperately needs some form of management with the buffs removed and having positionals fit this management good, doesn't even need to be damage it could give you chakra or something for your oGCD. Going out here for a second but I think historically wall bosses have been the worst bosses in the game I think literally the only wall boss thats ever had universal positivety was Shinryu EX, I would pray that monk becomes positional focused because then we would have less of these boring bosses. Also not every job needs to be accessible, we don't need BLM to get a SMN rework just because more people will play it, VPR and RPR are simple melee jobs for people to play is it so much to ask to have a hard job for people who want to be challenged?

Thats the issue with "Fun", its subjective. Some players like positionals, some dont and some dont care. maybe some people really enjoy monk now because they like the style.

I generally think they will adjust the class design to fit into the encounter design and not the other way around.

The thing is especially monk has to be accessible because its a job that starts at lvl 1. reaper and viper are job that start at level 70/80 so you need to get there first.
Maybe it can get more complex in the later levels.

And i think when you look and the newer jobs you can see what job design SE is aiming for.

[SpookGhoulman]

I agree, having more positionals on monk would definitely make the job feel better