Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[PyurBlue]

If people are willing to compromise, then let's try to compromise. I put forward a suggestion earlier that dungeons contain enemies with the ability to lower healing which would go after the tank. This would allow for overpowered healing skills to remain without letting them trivialize healing. In the case of WAR, Bloodwhetting would remain unchanged, but self healing would be futile when within the influence of the healing down enemy. Tanks would require healer support at least some of the time while they would also have to be a little more careful about using their own self healing since it could be wasted.

I would rather make WAR healing reasonable for a few reasons, but such an addition to dungeons would at least elevate the experience of partying with a war to being more than filler attack spam. How to balance and implement it is a bit of a question. Firstly, does it get added to old dungeons? If not are they going to remain broken? How is the healing down enemy presence handled? It can't be trivial to defeat or it won't make a difference and I imagine that those in favor of Bloodwhetting don't want the enemy to be so common that self healing isn't viable ever. Aesthetically and thematically, if this same enemy is every dungeon and every pull, it might stand out and feel forced or out of place.

There are some problems to work out, but is this idea worth considering?

[Alice_Rivers]

It seems like a reasonable idea, I think I would handle it using tethers to other nearby enemies that boost it's resistance so it can't sensibly just be bursted down, could also be part of a broader set of enemies with effects like damage and resistance down that could be randomised do you never know which will appear when you load into the dungeon.

[CKNovel]

It's called discussion, not capitulation, but you seem to be trying very hard to make it appear anything short of capitulation is unacceptible to you.

I have tried, again, to have a discussion. But just as you can lead a horse to water, I cannot make you discuss.

Edit: You spoke of compromise, yet as I suggest we compromise you say no. You don't even offer an alternative, just "no".

Simply because the nerf is pointless and unnaceptable. Compromise isn't always the solution, you're proposing a false compromise.
"I will cut both your legs!"
"I refuse to have my legs cut!"
"Fine then, let's make a compromise, I'll only cut one of your legs."

Then tell me you tried to have a discussion.
I will not compromise for a nerf, it's pointless and closes the door to future abilities that could steps out of the lines.

[Alice_Rivers]

So we argue about arguing, instead of talking about ideas, five or six perfectly valid ones that benefit everyone I might add. Yes, I wasted perfectly good oxygen and keystrokes trying.

At any point you could have said something along the lines of "We're not going to agree on reducing anything but we can increase damage, we can buff DRK, we can talk about ideas to keep raidwides viable" and hey presto, we'd have something to discuss.

[MikoRemi]

Simply because the nerf is pointless and unnaceptable. Compromise isn't always the solution, you're proposing a false compromise.
"I will cut both your legs!"
"I refuse to have my legs cut!"
"Fine then, let's make a compromise, I'll only cut one of your legs."

Then tell me you tried to have a discussion.
I will not compromise for a nerf, it's pointless and closes the door to future abilities that could steps out of the lines.

There’s really no point in discussing it with these people. It’s the same old loop long before DT when the few people here called for tanks to get their self sustain nerfed, I said SE wouldn’t do that but nobody believed me.

Fast forward to now and it’s gotten stronger. Meanwhile people will conveniently forget how even with our shiny tools, DF and PF on average can’t survive even easy content let alone extreme or higher. But were talking about how the self sustain has actually gotten better…I’d think that tell these people to try a different avenue but eh.

You can’t tell them when they’ve convinced themselves so, like the DRK mains that think Living Dead with dying is a benefit and that Dark Mind is a unique cooldown which somehow makes it good. They can say what they want but at the end of the day, were Bloodwhetting harder than ever and that’s just a fact~.

[CKNovel]

So we argue about arguing, instead of talking about ideas, five or six perfectly valid ones that benefit everyone I might add. Yes, I wasted perfectly good oxygen and keystrokes trying.

At any point you could have said something along the lines of "We're not going to agree on reducing anything but we can increase damage, we can buff DRK, we can talk about ideas to keep raidwides viable" and hey presto, we'd have something to discuss.

I'm pretty sure from the start I've been clear about the nerf, why I believe nerf shouldn't be done and my stance against nerf mentality.
You proposed a compromise, I answer you why a compromise is wrong.

What you wasted is on yourself, the day you understand the nerf of tank sustain (you're the one who mentionned tank sustain as a whole) is unecessary and a bandaid solution to the real issue, you'll realize you've wasted much more oxygen and keystroke.
But go ahead, keep your victim mentality and put the whole responsibility on me for refusing your inacceptable "compromise".

I won't repeat myself why I won't agree with a nerf, I've told it thousands of times and this "discussion" is just going in circle to a WAR nerf for no other reasons than balancing dungeons.
Tank sustain has been fine in WoW despite the ratio being higher than XIV, further proving a nerf isn't needed.

[Shurrikhan]

Simply because the nerf is pointless and unnaceptable. Compromise isn't always the solution, you're proposing a false compromise.
"I will cut both your legs!"
"I refuse to have my legs cut!"
"Fine then, let's make a compromise, I'll only cut one of your legs."

Then tell me you tried to have a discussion.
I will not compromise for a nerf, it's pointless and closes the door to future abilities that could steps out of the lines.

Mate, "Warrior players" (not necessarily mains or veterans, but "Warrior players" nonetheless) have been the largest community driver for the removal or homogenization of most things to step out of line among tanks:

• Hallowed Ground stepped out of line. What happened? Holmgang was changed from a CC skill with bundled knock back immunity into an invuln. Now we're stuck with invulns for everyone.
  
  
• Cover stepped out of line. What happened? Warriors demanded the transfered damage not benefit from PLD's mitigation. (Ironically, once NIN was introduced, this replaced Cover-Hallowed strats only in that you ended up with double Hallowed.)
  
  
• Sword Oath stepped out of line. What happened? It was made inferior to Deliverance for both AoE (as PLD literally had none besides CoS) and ST both, reducing it from PLD at least having a small max ST damage in exchange for its lower combined sustain+damage in practice to PLD mostly being permitted only for fights with hard-hitting but singular physical tank busters and little to no magical damage. Tbf, good riddance to that balancing approach, as simply rotated which off-Warriors, err, co-tanks, were allowed for which fights.
  
  
• Divine Veil stepped out of line. What happened? Instead of building around high burst followed by a period of pacification or a damage-stagger mechanic that Warrior could purge, Shake it Off was made a Divine Veil knockoff that was just higher ceiling and more responsive than the original. Because the voices of those who wanted an easy time via Warrior counter for more than those of actual Warrior mains.
  
  
• Inner Release stepped out of line. What happened? Oonga bungas didn't like the gap in effort required between optimal and skilled use (i.e., that split them from Warrior mains), so instead of merely dealing with its clunkiness in dungeons specifically, they gutted its core mechanic in favor of {X free uses}.
  
  
• Original Nascent Flash/Raw Intuition stepped out of line. What happened? Once the oonga bungas (mostly JP, iirc) has apparently had enough of banking gauge and syncing buffs because the highest-output-by-far external on-demands was "too hard" to optimize, we lost our choice in defensive output and that element of skill expression per the Endwalker version of BW/NF.

It's literally the need to favor ease of output or categorical advantage that has cost us differentiation where it mattered far more -- the actual playflow.

I'm sorry, but acting like any loss to ease of power, let alone from a source as obviously a broken scalar and as simplifying/degrading to the skill's gameplay as has been the case for EW BW/NF-- as an attempt to cut both one's legs off can't help but sound so damn entitled. It's the usual EW "screw you, veteran SMNs (and all other casters); SMN is how we like it now, so that's that," or ShB "tough luck, healer veterans, I like being able to spend 94% of spell casts on a single key" and it sucks when people pretend it's a matter of identity that even the slightest balancing of its performance is refuted no matter its favorable impact on the job's playflow or the broader health of the game as it stands now or could be added to.

Now, a lot of changes have happened without community support, yes, but if your complaint here is on how community discourse/action in this thread seems to be trending, I suggest you look back, too.

[Alice_Rivers]

So, if everything else I've suggested is so unacceptable to you, how do we balance normal content around WAR levels of self sustain? Assuming even that we boost all the other tanks to the same level.

[Shurrikhan]

So, if everything else I've suggested is so unacceptable to you, how do we balance normal content around WAR levels of self sustain? Assuming even that we boost all the other tanks to the same level.

You buff the other tanks' flat and per-target means of self-sustain, buff healers to proportionately match, buff all content to proportionately match the new values to what you originally had before among non-Warriors, and generally do 20+ times more work for the same result as having reverted Bloodwhetting to healing for a % of damage dealt (but without that reversion's increased gameplay interaction for Warrior)?

/shrug

[Kabooa]

You buff the other tanks' flat and per-target means of self-sustain, buff healers to proportionately match, buff all content to proportionately match the new values to what you originally had before among non-Warriors, and generally do 20+ times more work for the same result as having reverted Bloodwhetting to healing for a % of damage dealt (but without that reversion's increased gameplay interaction for Warrior)?

/shrug

Me trying to break TBN when it gets buffed to 400% my HP pool: