Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[CKNovel]

Nope I think PLD self healing on the sword combo is stupid and that aurora shouldn't have 2 stacks.
I never said this was a WAR exclusive problem, it's just that WAR is the most egregious.
Dungeon damage is something everyone argues about and can never find common ground on so I just don't talk about it. I simply think capping aoe bloodwhetting is the easiest way to make it less egregious, really this problem won't go away until the tank role is reworked to be more balanced around working with healers.

There's no trinity in dungeon we've already established that.
You can complete dungeons with 4 DPS, 4 healers or 4 tanks. The trinity isn't broken it's simply not applied, if it was broken it would've been in all content.

That's like saying your car is broken because the road is muddy. Obviously, it makes no sense, since on any other terrain your car functions fine.

Removing a charge on Aurora will just make it so you'll use 11 Aurora in 10 minutes instead of 12. You can try by yourself WAR's healing on single target the compare it to pack damage. You'll quickly figure that the problem will remain.
I'm just here to point the root cause. Queue as a healer in Heroes Gauntlet, you'll quickly understand that healers were in this state far before tank sustain.

[Tunda]

WAR is the most played Tank. It is the most purchased job boosted on mogstation and has the most self sustain for OGCD on a tank. The job is super balanced. Majority of players do not want a WAR rework.

Warrior feels good even with 30% of the healing he has now

Warrior broke the game and trinity system

Warrior can do medium damage
But very high defense and high healing

No tank can match the job nor healers

Shake it off could be level 100 ability for healer job not a warrior

[aiqa]

WAR is the most played Tank. It is the most purchased job boosted on mogstation and has the most self sustain for OGCD on a tank. The job is super balanced. Majority of players do not want a WAR rework.

A hugely overtuned job is the most used job. I am so surprised.

There's no trinity in dungeon we've already established that.

We?

You can complete dungeons with 4 DPS, 4 healers or 4 tanks. The trinity isn't broken it's simply not applied, if it was broken it would've been in all content.

The game enforces trinity in roulettes, so it's obviously intended. And something can be broken in specific content.

And possible is not the same as optimal. Generally people consider speed the metric to optimize dungeons. The runs I've seen with a full dps team were very far from optimal. The most common setup for optimal runs is tank + dps x3. The top 100 dungeon speed scores on FFlogs don't even have any healers, in any of the 3 endgame dungeons. And randomly clicking through the teams I don't see any full dps teams.

I don't mind a non-standard team completing content, as long as it's not obviously the most optimal way.

That's like saying your car is broken because the road is muddy. Obviously, it makes no sense, since on any other terrain your car functions fine.

If your car can only move forward on completely flat roads, and struggles to a halt when there is a little mud on the road, I would very much call it broken.

[Ramiee]

There's no trinity in dungeon we've already established that.
You can complete dungeons with 4 DPS, 4 healers or 4 tanks. The trinity isn't broken it's simply not applied, if it was broken it would've been in all content.

That's like saying your car is broken because the road is muddy. Obviously, it makes no sense, since on any other terrain your car functions fine.

Removing a charge on Aurora will just make it so you'll use 11 Aurora in 10 minutes instead of 12. You can try by yourself WAR's healing on single target the compare it to pack damage. You'll quickly figure that the problem will remain.
I'm just here to point the root cause. Queue as a healer in Heroes Gauntlet, you'll quickly understand that healers were in this state far before tank sustain.

I am aware that the trinty has been fucked for years, in my scenarios im writing out its imagining a world where CBU3 gave a shit. Ideally like all trinty based MMOs Tanks would melt without healers DPS/Healers would melt without a tank and Healer/Tanks would melt without DPS. WARs current state is overtuned as fuck in dungeons its undeniable, its far more balanced in Raids won't disagree there I played WAR in Extreme/P4-7s and it wasn't immortal (though Holmgang's timer is completely broken.)
I don't even need to queue in Heroes to see how broken the trinty is any Stormblood dungeon with a WAR makes that clear, currently every single role needs to be reworked to either remove the trinity system completely or make it matter again. Hell I unlike most people would be fine with WARs current life steal to be on a longer CD either 60-90 seconds but that amount of healing every 25 seconds is something I can't see as justifyable unless the tank loses something such as damage in using it.
I think you just have a fundemental disagreement with how I like Trinty MMOs balanced, I like healers having sacrificeless heals while tanks and DPS have heals they have to sacrifice damage for like clemency, I don't like insane heals in aoe with no drawbacks, I felt this way about DRK in SB which is something a bunch of people would disagree with me about.

[CKNovel]

A hugely overtuned job is the most used job. I am so surprised.

Warrior is a simple job that offers a good and reliable kit, it's often the first pick for tanks.
Not because it's broken, there's been situations where WAR has been on the lower end but still insanely popular.

We?

You can deny it if you want. It's proven you don't need a tank, dps or a healer to clear dungeons.
You can refer yourself to my analysis of damage distribution in dungeon.

The game enforces trinity in roulettes, so it's obviously intended. And something can be broken in specific content.
And possible is not the same as optimal. Generally people consider speed the metric to optimize dungeons. The runs I've seen with a full dps team were very far from optimal.

The game doesn't enforce trinity, even when queueing with random, it's an arbitraty rule to have the safest composition. There's always a healer in Guildhests yet they're completely useless in most of the guildhest.
The 100 fastest dungeon not including healers is a lie, you can find healers in top 100 of Deadwalk and Tender valley. Even then, you gain 1 to 2 minutes which is pointless unless you need to farm it hundreds of times, which isn't the case.
Speed alone doesn't define an optimal way to farm, if a DPS dies your run suddenly becomes suboptimal.

If your car can only move forward on completely flat roads, and struggles to a halt when there is a little mud on the road, I would very much call it broken.

That's a completely different situation, what's your point.

Hell I unlike most people would be fine with WARs current life steal to be on a longer CD either 60-90 seconds but that amount of healing every 25 seconds is something I can't see as justifyable unless the tank loses something such as damage in using it.

You could put it on 180s CD healers would remain boring in dungeon.
The rest of the WAR kit is perfectly enough to maintain the WAR alive, do you want to nerf them as well and make WAR a joke in other content than dungeons?

[Ramiee]

You could put it on 180s CD healers would remain boring in dungeon.
The rest of the WAR kit is perfectly enough to maintain the WAR alive, do you want to nerf them as well and make WAR a joke in other content than dungeons?

You are hyper fixated on other roles when I am talking about Tanks not healers. Bloodbath is balanced around being 90 seconds I don't know why WAR can't have its weaponskill self heals attached to a 60-90 second CD and replace the short CD healing effect with something else. You already said that this only effects dungeons not raids so why are you now saying the healing weaponskill ability is now what makes it viable in raids?
I just think they should cap bloodwhettings aoe healing in dungeons is that really going to make it unplayable, I really don't get your train of thought.

[ApolloGenX]

Probably better off with improvements to others..war is actually fun

[FunnyCero]

Bloodbath is a tool that lasts 20 seconds and is applied to OGCDs as well for a role that does not constantly eat hits to the face (or hopefully are not).

On the actual post, warrior is the most fun tank because it can stand out. I sympathize with healers not having an enjoyable time but most I've known have expressed this from the balancing philosophy of content not needing intensive healing and having DPS aspects that made their jobs interesting in downtime gradually trimmed to non-existence. But I don't know why people are citing dungeons as a place of balance for the game in the first place. It's the lowest tier of content with little interesting enemies which is meant to be breezed through for convenience of people running them (typically for roulettes or glam).

[Terhix]

This is a post from another thread, but I think it's the perfect illustration as to why current iteration of Bloodwhetting is bad for the game:

(...)

YOu can use 2-3 TBN per trash pull, which equals to 75% health , compare that to Bloodwhetting which not only gives you 10% mitigation and heals you for ~300% health on each use.

We can't even have a reasonable discussion about other tanks, because Bloodwhetting exists and it's setting such an absurd standard that people will non-ironically compare abilities that are perfectly fine to Bloodwhetting on trash packs in dungeons specifically as a means to make a point.

No tank needs to heal multiples of its entire HP bar every 25s in any context, ever.

[CKNovel]

You are hyper fixated on other roles when I am talking about Tanks not healers. Bloodbath is balanced around being 90 seconds I don't know why WAR can't have its weaponskill self heals attached to a 60-90 second CD and replace the short CD healing effect with something else. You already said that this only effects dungeons not raids so why are you now saying the healing weaponskill ability is now what makes it viable in raids?
I just think they should cap bloodwhettings aoe healing in dungeons is that really going to make it unplayable, I really don't get your train of thought.

Dungeons are supposed to be 4 players, 3 different roles and we're talking about the holy trinity. I'm not hyper fixated on other role, I'm simply considering all of them.
It would be hypocritical to claim the trinity is dead but only caring about healers, correct?

I've shared with you why capping Bloodwhetting to a single target would barely make any differences.
Bloodbath is a different can of worms, it's a DPS skill and DPS aren't meant to be tanky or heal a lot

You already said that this only effects dungeons not raids so why are you now saying the healing weaponskill ability is now what makes it viable in raids?

This is a strawman.
I've said even if you changed Bloodwhetting, even as far as removing it, WAR other cooldown would still be enough to maintain itself in dungeon.
I then asked you if we should nerf them as well, which would impact the WAR in other content. Not that its healing weaponskill is what makes it viable.

Changing BW to bloodbath equivalent would mean a longer duration and you'd still use it on every packs.