Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Shurrikhan]

I think something that also goes too often unmentioned is how detrimental it is to the actual fun of tanking dungeons as Warrior for a healing skill to be so powerful as to act 7 seconds of Benediction spam in AoE, not to mention so thoughtlessly.

Warrior felt better to play as (not just to play with) in Shadowlands when Nascent Flash's self-healing (now on Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting as well) was more constrained and actually varied with your actions.

[CKNovel]

Running a dungeon with WAR and 3 dps isn't just possible, it is in fact the optimal way to do it. All expert dungeons are for is grinding weekly tomestones, and if doing it without a healer is faster (and it is) then people will be doing that (and they have through the whole Endwalker). PLD at least has to trade DPS to cast Clemency so even if it can do the same content with 3 dps, it's not automatically The Best Way To Do Expert Dungeons TM.

First, who cares about optimising dungeons.
Second, that's not a fact that's a lie. Any tank can do this kind of run. In Early Endwalker DRK was the pick of choice.

You can find the team compositions that speedrun each dungeons and will see that PLD and GNB are also in these type of composition.
PLD doesn't even need to press Clemency that much, it's just an option in case of emergency

Then finally, those runs saves at most 2 minutes and I'm really generous.
You need to run it 5 times, including Expert roulette, to cap. That's 10 poor minutes saved, your life won't change.

[QuilavaKakes]

SE is slowly going in a direction to make the game harder. WAR is fine where it is right now especially since they intend to change the difficulty. You can't appease all people, some people complain it's too hard or too easy. Granted you're limiting yourself to dungeon only content so ofc it will end up being easy, most of it is for story anyways. Just because you limit yourself doesn't mean the rest of us need to be limited in higher end content.
The diversity of classes also is what makes the game interesting. WAR needs self sustain and healing so it can be the class it's meant to be and help with higher end content. It's playing as intended. You want a nerf on ONE class for dungeons of which people won't even really play. I really doubt people are spamming dungeons every day and that's all they do. Pretty sure dungeons are a means to an end and that's why SE is working on making criterion. Honestly, would love to see the proof of stats from svg to dungeon ratio because I think it's being under-recognized here.

[Terhix]

First, who cares about optimising dungeons.

Almost everybody I run into in the game. If I don't do W2W pulls the dps gets bored, the healer gets bored, and it's only a matter of time before someone asks "hey can we pull more?"

In Early Endwalker DRK was the pick of choice.

So now we're just making shit up? Early Endwalker DRK didn't even have self-healing on Living Dead.

[CKNovel]

Almost everybody I run into in the game. If I don't do W2W pulls the dps gets bored, the healer gets bored, and it's only a matter of time before someone asks "hey can we pull more?"

So now we're just making shit up? Early Endwalker DRK didn't even have self-healing on Living Dead.

Well that was what we did with my group, it was the pick of choice due to its burst. For 6.2 I went GNB.
Dungeons in Endwalker used to hit even less.

In any cases, that's a laughable gain and PLD remains a pick at least equal to WAR in 3 DPS comp.
Proving furthermore that Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, with data to back it up.

Nerf Warrior in dungeons, people would just switch to PLD and the core problem remains.

[Terhix]

Well that was what we did with my group, it was the pick of choice due to its burst. For 6.2 I went GNB.
Dungeons in Endwalker used to hit even less.

In any cases, that's a laughable gain and PLD remains a pick at least equal to WAR in 3 DPS comp.
Proving furthermore that Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, with data to back it up.

Nobody went on a healer strike over DRK, quite the opposite, people complained about healing DRK being annoying: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...d_to_heal_drk/

I also find it funny that the answer to your "who cares about optimising dungeons" is also: you, apparently.

[CKNovel]

Nobody went on a healer strike over DRK, quite the opposite, people complained about healing DRK being annoying: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...d_to_heal_drk/

I also find it funny that the answer to your "who cares about optimising dungeons" is also: you, apparently.

Yeah? And we were a minority and figured it barely saved any time. What's your point, just trying to score something?
We just wanted to do cap before savage release, it's not like we did it on a weekly basis.

Healers went on a strike because every healer is spamming 1 and refreshing a dot. Healing isn't engaging, with or without warrior.
It could be a PLD, healer strike would've still happened.

But let's go back to the main topic, Warrior and its dungeon healing.
You know, the point I've seen no answer to it? That Paladin would simply replace Warrior and that the actual problem would remain unsolved?

[Ramiee]

I don't get why you are against capping aoe bloodwhetting, Kardia isn't damage per mob = heal for a reason. No reason why capping it to 2-3 mobs for lifesteal isnt a fine enough fix. With the rampart buff and thrill of battle it would still be incredibly powerful in dungeons anyway.
Also PLD should be nerfed too, 100 cure potency per sword combo would be great for a 60 cd self heal. damage sacrifice for clemency is ok for that ability rn.

[Terhix]

Yeah? And we were a minority and figured it barely saved any time. What's your point, just trying to score something?
We just wanted to do cap before savage release, it's not like we did it on a weekly basis.

Healers went on a strike because every healer is spamming 1 and refreshing a dot. Healing isn't engaging, with or without warrior.
It could be a PLD, healer strike would've still happened.

I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias. Nothing particularly wrong with it, I have my own, though in my case I've leveled warrior to do casual content without healers in EW and got so bored with it I can't even bother leveling Warrior to 100.

But let's go back to the main topic, Warrior and its dungeon healing.
You know, the point I've seen no answer to it? That Paladin would simply replace Warrior and that the actual problem would remain unsolved?

If you are right, which you may very well be, then sure, there still will be a problem, but it will also be progress over the state of the game today. If both PLD and WAR are overtuned to varying degrees, the existence of PLD is not an argument against nerfing WAR. What that argument is is Whataboutism, a logical fallacy.

[CKNovel]

I need to preface this by saying I don't think you're doing or have done anything wrong. My point is you don't appear to particularly care about dungeon balance, but you do appear to have at least some interest in keeping Warrior in dungeon as it is - it's bias. Nothing particularly wrong with it, I have my own, though in my case I've leveled warrior to do casual content without healers in EW and got so bored with it I can't even bother leveling Warrior to 100.

The reason I want not to nerf Bloodwhetting is for multiple reasons:
-After nerfing bloowhetting, people would move on to another tank job to nerf.
-I want people to realize the actual issue, Bloodwhetting isn't the problem, it's the Healers that are boring as hell while waiting for something to heal and dungeons aren't engaging.
-Something overpowered in a content in which balance doesn't matter is good. More of this on other jobs and let people have fun.

If you are right, which you may very well be, then sure, there still will be a problem, but it will also be progress over the state of the game today. If both PLD and WAR are overtuned to varying degrees, the existence of PLD is not an argument against nerfing WAR. What that argument is is Whataboutism, a logical fallacy.

Okay mister fallacy, you're the one who brought, I quote:
"Running a dungeon with WAR and 3 dps isn't just possible, it is in fact the optimal way to do it."

To then I brought my counter-argument: PLD and GNB are also able to so similar things while being even more optimal for PLD.
That's not whataboutism or a fallacy since it's directly adressing Warrior capacity to do dungeons without a healer. My example, PLD and GNB, shares the same capacity.

It would've been whataboutism if I directly avoided the issue. For example, if I said "Why are you complaining about Warrior when Pictomancer can delete packs in dungeons?", because it shifts to another problem.

Again, you're just trying to score something.