Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Alice_Rivers]

Dungeons and normal are the easy, story modes. They're designed to be steamrolled by anyone.
Asking to balance jobs for the easy mode is counter productive as you'll impact the job performance on all content.

It's a reason, I suppose, I don't find it particularly persuasive. Designing content to be steamrolled is exactly what brought us to the point where we have a dozen or more threads above difficulty with dozens of people insulting eachother. It's also the reason why the divide between casual players and savage raiders is so significant with midcore unserved. It should be entirely possible to maintain a difficulty curve and the content be balanced.

Savage and ultimates are exactly the modes where balance matters the most. If you nerf Warrior because you find them too strong in the easy more, they'll be weaker because some people are complaining about dungeons.
Imagine if you nerf something because it's too strong in the tutorial, it doesn't makes sense, correct?

Yes, actually, it makes perfect sense that you either adjust something because it's too strong in the tutorial or you adjust the tutorial because it's not teaching properly as a result of that thing being too powerful. Preferably you adjust both in smaller degrees to reach the same balance point which is what I want to see.

And let's be real, if Warrior had bloodwhetting removed, people would then move on to whine about other tools. Even if tank were nerfed, healers wouldn't make use of their full kit in dungeons.
Dungeons are the problem, they don't deal enough damage and all damages are mostly focused on the tank. Fix them and you'll see less complaints about WAR.

Which is why I'm not suggesting removing bloodwhetting or anything else from the WAR kit, simply adjusting it in a way that maintains it's savage/ultimate power without breaking the rest of the game for everyone who plays that. In a holy trinity setup that is actively enforced by the game's primary group finding apparatus (the Duty Finder) all three points of it should be properly enforced lest your "tutorial" is not doing it's job. Teaching healers to do dps at the expense of their intended primary role (a role demanded in savage/ultimate) by having WAR do their job for them is doing nobody any favours, healers, tanks and dps alike - especially in savage content where people then have to completely relearn their jobs.

[CKNovel]

It's a reason, I suppose, I don't find it particularly persuasive. Designing content to be steamrolled is exactly what brought us to the point where we have a dozen or more threads above difficulty with dozens of people insulting eachother. It's also the reason why the divide between casual players and savage raiders is so significant with midcore unserved. It should be entirely possible to maintain a difficulty curve and the content be balanced.

Removing bloodwhetting was an extreme example to show that it wouldn't fix the actual issue. The point is that even without Bloodwhetting, even if it never existed, people would complain.
If you nerf it, people will complain regardless, because the problem are exactly the dungeons very low damage.

I strongly believe it would be better to have dungeons doing more party wide damage so that both tank and healer can use and learn about their tools.
Even without Bloodwhetting, dungeons and normal mode do a terrible jobs at teaching the game. In fact, nothing teaches you about the game, your best bet are guides...

If you nerf Bloodwhetting, you still suffers the mentionned problems:
-Dungeon damages remains underbalanced and good tanks will still take minimal damage, people's complaints will move from Warrior to Paladin.
-Holy trinity responsibility will still be extremely low, healer won't make use of their full use of their healing kit and will DPS more than heal.
-Dungeons won't fill their role as "tutorial" and won't teach healers or tanks anything.

[Alice_Rivers]

If you nerf Bloodwhetting, you still suffers the mentionned problems:
-Dungeon damages remains underbalanced and good tanks will still take minimal damage, people's complaints will move from Warrior to Paladin.
-Holy trinity responsibility will still be extremely low, healer won't make use of their full use of their healing kit and will DPS more than heal.
-Dungeons won't fill their role as "tutorial" and won't teach healers or tanks anything.

All of which brings me back to this:

Yes, actually, it makes perfect sense that you either adjust something because it's too strong in the tutorial or you adjust the tutorial because it's not teaching properly as a result of that thing being too powerful. Preferably you adjust both in smaller degrees to reach the same balance point which is what I want to see.

So far as I can tell, reducing the amount of targets WAR can heal off per attack goes a long way to balancing it in dungeons without changing high end balance in any meaningful way, then you increase sustained NPC damage in lower end content to be balanced with existing mits and healing, further, to maintain that balance, I would suggest reducing the ilvl range on duties to prevent excessive power from stats breaking that balance. If, after that, adjustments need to be made to PLD, to GNB, to DRK, so be it, there's nothing stopping them from re-tuning savage and ultimate for some potency adjustments that balance the foundational and intended educational experience to actually educate and build foundations.

Is it a pain point in the short term? Yes, it'll frustrate everyone, but in the long term it's far better for the health of the game and the continued retention of players. No MMO can live purely on player turnover.

[Japaneseschoolgirl]

that won't help, even on single target a war can get up to near full if they know what they are doing. the more targets just make it easier.
if War is going to be the self healing tank, then it's going to be like this no matter what.

but also ask why. Most healers I encounter can't handle drk in dungeons. i'm god awful as a healer and I can still comfortably heal a drk in a dungeon. so we just go war to get it over with. Also war provides newer and less skilled tanks a safer way to do dungeons.

People already have tank anxiety, changing the safe/easy tank will only add further stress to new tanks.

Personally, I only take drk or war into expertise depending on how I feel.
Good mood = drk
Bad mode and don't wanna have to deal the chance a healer can't keep up with a drk = war.

and finally changing a job to fit low-level content, to add challenge people who don't wanna do harder content, seems pointless, it's not like war is going to savage and slapping the boss around on the regular,

It seems like all this talk about healers leads to non tank players wanting to change tank. to suit them. instead of offering ideas on how EXACTLY to "fix" healers.
Why idk, I feel like a healer is fine but I don't play it too often so my thoughts on healer dont matter.

#TANKBROTHERHOOD4LIFE

[CKNovel]

So far as I can tell, reducing the amount of targets WAR can heal off per attack goes a long way to balancing it in dungeons without changing high end balance in any meaningful way, then you increase sustained NPC damage in lower end content to be balanced with existing mits and healing, further, to maintain that balance, I would suggest reducing the ilvl range on duties to prevent excessive power from stats breaking that balance. If, after that, adjustments need to be made to PLD, to GNB, to DRK, so be it, there's nothing stopping them from re-tuning savage and ultimate for some potency adjustments that balance the foundational and intended educational experience to actually educate and build foundations.

Is it a pain point in the short term? Yes, it'll frustrate everyone, but in the long term it's far better for the health of the game and the continued retention of players. No MMO can live purely on player turnover.

Good news, we already have content where Bloodwhetting used to be weaker and damages taken were bigger. Shadowbringers dungeons started to hit harder.
This resulted in tanks being encouraged to use Arm's Length. So this resulted in an increase of standard and player skill but still on the wrong plan - Single target healing and tank mitigation.

What I believe dungeons needs to focus are the party wide healing and mitigations. Healer primary role is to heal the party, yet the amount of damage DPS and healers takes is minimal!
That's my point, even if you nerf Bloodwhetting and all tanks self healing, the "trinity" is meaningless as long as DPS and healers takes minimal damage.

That tutorial doesn't work as a tutorial.

[Alice_Rivers]

that won't help, even on single target a war can get up to near full if they know what they are doing. the more targets just make it easier.
if War is going to be the self healing tank, then it's going to be like this no matter what.

but also ask why. Most healers I encounter can't handle drk in dungeons. i'm god awful as a healer and I can still comfortably heal a drk in a dungeon. so we just go war to get it over with. Also war provides newer and less skilled tanks a safer way to do dungeons.

Honestly if a healer can't keep a DRK alive then one or both players is doing it wrong. DRK is easy to keep up, even as the weakest tank, from a healer point of view I consider it to be the best balanced in the mit/heal department. On the subject of WAR being a heal tank: I don't have an inherent problem with a tank that mitigates through healing, it's actually a cool concept that I replicated in a different MMO using the healer class, the problem is that WARs heals are not balanced as mitigation in normal content, it just completely replaces the healer role. This is a clear failure of the balance team.

I've said it before, I'll reiterate here: I'm not out to destroy WAR, I'm not seeking to break savage, I simply want to curb WAR's excesses in normal content in a way that has minimal impact on everything else and bring the content up to meet the current power level.

Good news, we already have content where Bloodwhetting used to be weaker and damages taken were bigger. Shadowbringers dungeons started to hit harder.
This resulted in tanks being encouraged to use Arm's Length. So this resulted in an increase of standard and player skill but still on the wrong plan - Single target healing and tank mitigation.

What I believe dungeons needs to focus are the party wide healing and mitigations. Healer primary role is to heal the party, yet the amount of damage DPS and healers takes is minimal!
That's my point, even if you nerf Bloodwhetting and all tanks self healing, the "trinity" is meaningless as long as DPS and healers takes minimal damage.

That tutorial doesn't work as a tutorial.

I can support increasing party damage, I was saying to a friend the other day that NPCs have too low sustained damage output in both single and multi-target manners, obviously in boss fights and trials one can simply throw out more raidwides but how do we go about it for pulls? I know everyone hates enemies that ignore aggro to target at random - I think with good reason, it defeats the whole point of the tank.

[CKNovel]

I can support increasing party damage, I was saying to a friend the other day that NPCs have too low sustained damage output in both single and multi-target manners, obviously in boss fights and trials one can simply throw out more raidwides but how do we go about it for pulls? I know everyone hates enemies that ignore aggro to target at random - I think with good reason, it defeats the whole point of the tank.

One of the dungeons has exactly two ennemies dealing party wide damage. Thought they're super weak, we could have ennemies doing massive raidiwide, share on the healer...
We have that in criterion, adds that targets party member other than the tank.

Apply the same thing to normal dungeons, you could even have a DPS that get a targeted AoE that inflicts a curable debuff/physical resist down that DPS must avoid to apply on tanks.
There's even the cubes in one of the EX dungeons that deals aoe damage.

I believe this is a great path that would make healers more important in dungeons.