Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[Shurrikhan]

Its already been nerfed to the ground.

It's still in the strongest state it's ever been in. It has received no nerfs.

Ironically they solved this issue back when tanks had two stances. If you wanted to heal yourself you had to be in defiance and take a damage hit in exchange for staying alive.

And I'd love to see that available agency returned and expanded upon.

I'm sitting here wondering why SiO got a regen when all it needed was higher % on the shields when sacrificing your buffs. Equilibrium also didn't need the regen imo. It would have been better if it was a 1200 potency heal when HP below 50% or 1200 potency barrier when HP above 50%.

Ironically, the HoT would actually make SiO less brain-dead... if it weren't so much larger a buff than everyone else got to their raid-wides (if any). At least with the HoT you can't just pop it any time within 30s of a raidwide to get full sustain (even if not necessarily life-saving) value out of it.

But yeah, between keeping healing from damage/attacks dealt strong (though, I'd still want it to scale from ST to AoE in a reasonable fashion) and getting regens (i.e., if Warrior were balanced and I therefore had to choose), I'd take the healing from damage/attacks dealt every time.

Nah, it's just WAR specifically. Gimp WAR enough that PLD takes it spot, while WAR joins DRK in the abyss and GNB just keeps doing what it's doing (I guess).

I've never seen "reduced from a lead of 30-50% to a lead of ~20%" referred to as "gimp" before. Learn something new every day, though, I guess.

[whiskeybravo]

I've never seen "reduced from a lead of 30-50% to a lead of ~20%" referred to as "gimp" before. Learn something new every day, though, I guess.

Come on now, surely that's not enough to make healers feel relevant again.

Even 1 heal per gcd, or 80% reduction beyond first in AoE, or max of 2 or 3 targets. Anything this low would still be roughly equivalent to Equilibrium with half the CD. This alone is not enough to change any paradigm. All it does is "gimp" WAR in order to make healers (and DRK) feel better about themselves.

[PyurBlue]

Why do healers think the only ones that need healing are tanks?

They don't have to be, though dungeons are designed such that tanks are the primary healing target. If a tank can survive easily with no assistance, something is wrong and existing dungeons tend to get boring. Going back and updating all the content to take self sufficient tanks into account is possible, but unlikely. It's a lot more work than fixing 1 or 2 skills on one class.

Also, why do they think gimping tanks is fun for anyone?

Correcting something that is blatantly overpowered isn't gimping at all. I'll also point out that I don't limit myself to healing. I play all the roles. WAR in its current state is a mistake no matter how I look at it.

All the talk is just tanks.... what about the rest of the party???

When other classes are as problematic as WAR they will be treated the same. It's clear that there are some differing opinions here, but a balanced and engaging game is fun. Breezing through dungeons while paying the minimum amount of attention the game has no appeal to me, and dungeons being casual content doesn't make that a reasonable expectation. If you're suggesting to shift the healing focus from tank to DPS, then why is the tank even in the party, and what prevents DPS from becoming self sufficient if tanks are allowed to be immortal bystanders that just happen to be there with the rest of the group? Doing this amounts to giving up on the established roles in the game and starting over. It can be done, but I don't see it as realistic.

At this point maybe there needs to be a hard mode roulette or duties. Make those out of the same dungeons we have now, but with some harder enemies and balancing factors (like the healing down enemy I mentioned before for example). If I could queue for that and avoid normal dungeons where party dynamics don't matter, that would work for me. It would also fill the gap of missing mid tier content. Savage and Extreme already exist, but they retain the same scripted difficult that they always have, which requires a different approach than jumping into a roulette with a random group.

[Supersnow845]

Tanks always ask “why do healers want to take away our self healing” but never ask “why do we have such overpowered self healing in the first place”

You always whine that we want to take your ability away your job skills. Well we have literally nothing. You do more damage than us, you have a more interesting rotation than us, you do our job for us in casual content, you have in built system advantages like bias in AIN, you have achievements and rare mounts simply for doing content as a tank

Healers have literally nothing in the modern game yet we are apparently the selfish ones for asking that tanks don’t do our role for us

[Lyth]

I think this newly circulating claim that 'healers are only there to heal the rest of the party' to be a self-defeating argument.

You create a team-based raid environment in which healers are there to keep their DPS alive, and DPS are there to meet the DPS check and kill the boss. And then there are tanks, which exist independently of this. So what are tanks there for? I'd argue that if that is the intended design, you could easily take out the tank role altogether and design fights around DPS and healers. Bosses are more than capable of positioning themselves, as we know. Damage can revolve entirely around raidwides and avoidable attacks. You don't need an entire role just to invuln swap through 4-5 tankbusters per fight.

What gave tanks more value historically was the fact that incoming damage on the tank was a non-trivial thing that required close collaboration with your healers. The current design, both in terms of the availability of self-healing and mitigation tools (especially invulns), devalues that. Don't you want tanking skill checks back? Can such a thing even exist given the current tank designs?

I just don't get the reasoning.

[Shurrikhan]

Come on now, surely that's not enough to make healers feel relevant again.

No one has said it would be enough by itself, and several posts in this thread thus far have explicitly said (and likely only because running into so many whataboutisms and false dichotomies somehow made the obvious necessary to restate) that reining WAR in back towards a balanced state would not fix healers on its own, but not having one job randomly be able to put out half more than others in all content and up to 3x more in certain content forms is a fairly necessary first step for setting up any broader paradigm shifts regarding how, and how much, healing needs to be done by healers.

I.e., not sufficient in itself, but nonetheless necessary. Most cool fun things a game might add... require at least a decent degree of balance in whatever capacities they would be centered around.

Again, you seem to be treating anything less than being significantly overpowered (and whether it uniquely permits success in normal circumstances or no, Warrior is that) as inherently and significantly less fun. On that is already disagree, but fair enough: preferences don't have to be logical, broad-minded, or anything else. But, if you're not willing to imagine out the game as a healer with every tank being similarly overpowered, that's literally just "Don't take away my advantages!" And I don't think that instinct is worth placating. Especially when it has hurt Warrior's and others' gameplay alike.

[AmiableApkallu]

If they aren't going to make encounters lethal enough require all the abilities we have, it's inevitable that all these abilities will perceived as OP and "ruining" the game.

The funny thing is... DRKs, as they currently exist, are brought into all the content that the other tanks are, and yet, there's no similar outcry that DRKs are "over-powered" and "ruining" the game.

Why is that?

[whiskeybravo]

I think this newly circulating claim that 'healers are only there to heal the rest of the party' to be a self-defeating argument.

I'm not sure anyone actually said or thinks that. The rebuttal was to some notion that healers only existed to heal tanks and if the tanks heal themselves they apparently have no job left. Simply not true.

No one has said it would be enough by itself, and several posts in this thread thus far have explicitly said (and likely only because running into so many whataboutisms and false dichotomies somehow made the obvious necessary to restate) that reining WAR in back towards a balanced state would not fix healers on its own, but not having one job randomly be able to put out half more than others in all content and up to 3x more in certain content forms is a fairly necessary first step for setting up any broader paradigm shifts regarding how, and how much, healing needs to be done by healers.

I.e., not sufficient in itself, but nonetheless necessary. Most cool fun things a game might add... require at least a decent degree of balance in whatever capacities they would be centered around.

So my comment of gimping WAR down to DRK levels, or probably worse with the shear amount of general vitriol directed towards it by the community, remains correct.

Again, you seem to be treating anything less than being significantly overpowered (and whether it uniquely permits success in normal circumstances or no, Warrior is that) as inherently and significantly less fun. On that is already disagree, but fair enough: preferences don't have to be logical, broad-minded, or anything else. But, if you're not willing to imagine out the game as a healer with every tank being similarly overpowered, that's literally just "Don't take away my advantages!" And I don't think that instinct is worth placating. Especially when it has hurt Warrior's and others' gameplay alike.

It would be inherently and significantly less fun than it currently is. There's really nothing to argue about on that point. The problem I have is that a nerf, even an incredibly heavy nerf, does nothing to address other concerns surrounding gameplay. I mean, it's pretty hard to say that having to cast a few more heals per dungeon pull is going to drastically change the enjoyment a healer has. If they aren't getting that enjoyment on 3/4 of the other tanks (which supposedly aren't as problematic) either how does changing WAR actually do anything.

This goes hand in hand with the second point which is that they gave us all these abilities to begin with. I'd rather be in a situation where they are all useful or required rather than delete them because SE failed in their implementation.

[Shurrikhan]

So my comment of gimping WAR down to DRK levels, or probably worse with the shear amount of general vitriol directed towards it by the community, remains correct.

Few have recommended reducing all tank sustain down to DRK's. Though, that level is literally just where, short of sacrificing damage for the purpose, any non-WAR was in Endwalker, so I fail to see how that is particularly "gimp" either.

Others have merely asked to average the sustain levels, as having one tank blatantly overperform the average by some four times the deviation between the rest makes it difficult to, simultaneously for non-WARs and mere non-WAR tanks, create engaging heal-checks in coordination between tanks and healers.

This goes hand in hand with the second point which is that they gave us all these abilities to begin with.

Sometimes tools given are excessive. It's better then to nerf them back into reasonability than power creep the entire game to pander to those whose feelings might be hurt by having a time limit on excess power.

I'd rather be in a situation where they are all useful or required rather than delete them because SE failed in their implementation.

As would I. That said, find me someone who's asked to outright delete Bloodwhetting's self-healing whatsoever, reducing it to a mere flat shield and its layers of %DR... instead of two layers of %DR, a flat shield, and a heal per attack per target struck for each attack for 8 seconds... and this would have relevance. Alas...

Remember, I already agreed that Bloodwhetting's healing should continue to scale, directly or indirectly, with target count, so long as other tanks had something compensatory in their kit that similarly scales with target count and/or that advantage wasn't quite so vast (rather than being literally +100% healing per target).

For my part, I don't think tanks should have any less agency than they have now... so long as we don't confuse {the ability to outperform others with ease} with merely being {able to have a significant impact}, let alone with skill-expression.

It would be inherently and significantly less fun than it currently is. There's really nothing to argue about on that point.

That is your subjective view. When one of my skills has so broken a scalar that it renders a third of my remaining kit redundant (unable to generate any additional rDPS), that makes the gameplay less fun to me. I like being engaged. However, to me, that requires not being overpowered.

Across pretty much any game, I find being underpowered (and thereby needing more optimization than most to get by), so long as the goals are still feasible and an invite still possible within my time constraints, a hell of a lot more fun that being overpowered (and therefore having parts of my kit rendered useless by other parts).

[whiskeybravo]

As would I. That said, find me someone who's asked to outright delete Bloodwhetting's self-healing whatsoever, reducing it to a mere flat shield and its layers of %DR... instead of two layers of %DR, a flat shield, and a heal per attack per target struck for each attack for 8 seconds... and this would have relevance. Alas...

Remember, I already agreed that Bloodwhetting's healing should continue to scale, directly or indirectly, with target count, so long as other tanks had something compensatory in their kit that similarly scales with target count and/or that advantage wasn't quite so vast (rather than being literally +100% healing per target).

....


That is your subjective view. When one of my skills has so broken a scalar that it renders a third of my remaining kit redundant (unable to generate any additional rDPS), that makes the gameplay less fun to me. I like being engaged. However, to me, that requires not being overpowered.

Well, I have stated a couple times now I'd be in favor of removing invulns, mainly because the tank kits are so strong now otherwise. Maybe the built in self-healing on PLD isn't an interesting mechanic, but BW is (if not interesting, at least interactive). I'd rather have it over 1 button that gets pressed once, twice, or never in an encounter.

I did start working on a "compromise" idea for BW. But idk about it. Maybe I'll just post and see what people have to say.

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I've never really viewed it from the perspective of my kit being redundant, except perhaps in execution. I literally do the same thing every dungeon, 1st pack BW > Damn > Rep > BW. 2nd pack BW >Ramp > Rep > BW. With thrill and eq if needed at some point. That's literally it. I don't care if something is redundant, I care that I will have these CDs in this order for every pull, if it overheals it overheals if it doesn't it doesn't. (maybe this is also partly why I don't see how healers are expecting something more enjoyable). The only real variation that ever occurs is if damage is low and pulls take too long to kill. Raid encounters aren't handled much differently, because it's all just a script in the end.