Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[CKNovel]

"How dare you ask that problem A be dealt with when other problems exist?!" is a very wrong way to look at almost anything, let alone when those problems are resolvable separately/independently of balancing concerns across tanks or among the relative contributions of Warrior's kit.

No strawman, please, I have said none of these words and neither implied them in any way.

Which do you actually like then? The gameplay of the tools (unchanged, except in that other Warrior mitigation optimizations might also now be of value), or solely the fact that you uniquely don't need the other roles / render another role redundant in their interactions with you, or a different game approach whereby the "trinity" is softened to a pudding?

A closed choice is a nice manipulation tactic.
I have proposed solutions that can restore the so holy trinity and pointed out why Bloodwhetting isn't the problem and that nerfing it wouldn't restore the trinity.

I want to keep the current status while restoring the trinity in dungeon, I've provided enough materials to do so.

[Shurrikhan]

No strawman, please, I have said none of these words and neither implied them in any way.

Unless you referred to yourself in the third person earlier and expect to be referred to also as such even in a direct reply, it should be clear that I wasn't referring to you, but rather the poster ("he") whose content we were both talking about.

A closed choice is a nice manipulation tactic.

A set of choices presented in a manner closed than it actually is would be a manipulation tactic, yes, but so would a set of choices presented as more open than they actually are. In this case, those choices are (to the honest extent of my understanding) exhaustive among what could/would be changed by dungeon tuning. Presenting anything more than them as relevant (insofar as seems to be remotely reasonable) would be (to my understanding) manipulative conflation.

If you can show why those potential outcomes are not exhaustive, by all means. But don't pretend that focusing on just what outcomes would actually be affected when discussing the effects of change is inherently reductive; by that token, it is at least as arguable that any discussion outside of what would be changed would be a separate issue and/or mere conflation.

I want to keep the current status while restoring the trinity in dungeon, I've provided enough materials to do so.

Then how the heck would spreading out the contributions of Warrior's kit in dungeons nearer to what they see in raids be damaging to that? And how would making healing truly matter (e.g., such that there is no spare free healing to be done by tanks or healers even at max gear and optimal play) make a broken scalar less important?

Yes, it might then do less to make healing redundant, but it would then provide a very real advantage to survivability and/or rDPS (via healing GCDs spared), not merely to ease, once you amp up incoming damage while leaving a single tank (and especially, a single skill) overpowered, making the issue arguably worse. Alternatively, the increases to incoming damage could only go so far as the other tanks are capable of dealing with, in which case Warrior (especially, Bloodwhetting) would still excessively step on the toes of healers (all over a scalar that has only been broken since Endwalker and actually degrades the sustain gameplay interactions that were previously available to Warrior).

it would be super nice if the non-WAR players would stay in their lane.

Is this a false flag, or are you really outing yourself (and by association, your job or a portion of its other users) as a whole new level of entitled / unconcerned for broader game health? These are comments on broader balance, not what feels good or what niche optimizations are available in a given Ultimate.

Jobs operate relative to their alternatives and their relative balance can absolutely have an impact on the game. An overpowered job necessarily impacts others (making content more difficult than intended if the OP job is tuned around and other jobs are taken instead or easier than usual if that job is stacked). An underpowered job that content is nonetheless tuned around necessarily impacts others (denying them a need to make full use of their kits / optimize appropriately).

"If you're not presently maxed in job Z, you are not allowed to voice concern for how job Z may impact jobs A-Y" is not a good look, even if we remove the hierarchical vibes there.

[CKNovel]

Then how the heck would spreading out the contributions of Warrior's kit in dungeons nearer to what they see in raids be damaging to that? And how would making healing truly matter (e.g., such that there is no spare free healing to be done by tanks or healers even at max gear and optimal play) make a broken scalar less important?

Yes, it might then do less to make healing redundant, but it would then provide a very real advantage to survivability and/or rDPS (via healing GCDs spared), not merely to ease, once you amp up incoming damage while leaving a single tank (and especially, a single skill) overpowered, making the issue arguably worse. Alternatively, the increases to incoming damage could only go so far as the other tanks are capable of dealing with, in which case Warrior (especially, Bloodwhetting) would still excessively step on the toes of healers (all over a scalar that has only been broken since Endwalker and actually degrades the sustain gameplay interactions that were previously available to Warrior).

I believe you're trying to thinking too deep.
Just look at 24 man raid, healing is still an insanely boring chore yet Warrior kit isn't in that specific situation where Bloodwhetting is broken.
Yet it's still boring to heal and the trinity barely matters! Why is it the case?

Bloodwhetting doesn't needs a nerf because it requires a very specific situation to be broken. Situations you only find in dungeons, maps and fate that regardless if you have a Warrior or not.
Bloodwhetting shouldn't be nerfed because the complains comes from a kneejerk reaction and would encourage nerf mentality for something so niche.

I do wonder if people here would be so happy if the shoe were on the other foot. If, for example, holy stun didn't have limited uses making all tanks and other healers inferior picks for party compositions in normal content. I mean, that's fine. Right?

Go ahead.
Tanks wouldn't complain because they have a rotation.
DPS would complain if you stun the mobs without letting them nicely pack first.
Healers would complain because they're spamming a single button.

[Crafoutis]

Jobs operate relative to their alternatives and their relative balance can absolutely have an impact on the game. An overpowered job necessarily impacts others (making content more difficult than intended if the OP job is tuned around and other jobs are taken instead or easier than usual if that job is stacked). An underpowered job that content is nonetheless tuned around necessarily impacts others (denying them a need to make full use of their kits / optimize appropriately).

"If you're not presently maxed in job Z, you are not allowed to voice concern for how job Z may impact jobs A-Y" is not a good look, even if we remove the hierarchical vibes there.

No, if you don't play the roles at max level you can't actually understand the difference between the classes at max level in order to lend an equally-representative voice to the discussion which seeks to impact design change. And as of the time I'm writing this, you do not have the tanks at max level.

I can't begin to describe my disinterest in your 'vibes'.

[Crafoutis]

Nerfing Warrior won't make healing interesting, and it would be super nice if the non-WAR players would stay in their lane.

I've been looking up characters posting in this thread and it's obscene how many non-WAR players are speaking like they're the mouthpiece of an entire job that they don't even have at max level.

[Shurrikhan]

Honestly, imma say it some people should of seen the interview with yoshi-p, I believe its from 7.2 and further they are gonna try to make class identities more diverse. For example: PLD be more of the defensive, GNB more dps, DRK more magical defense.

Those aren't worthwhile identities. Those will merely produce rotating levels of competitiveness based on the fight's damage type and how deep one is into prog -> farm (or, how mistake-prone one's party is). "Diversifying" tanks in that way merely obliges tank players to level all 4 and for each fight to take only 1-2 particular tank jobs for their given degree of progression.

Or, more shortly put, those "identities" would just necessitate more job-leveling grinds while greatly reducing job choice for all tanks.

[Mercury_Grey]

Those aren't worthwhile identities. Those will merely produce rotating levels of competitiveness based on the fight's damage type and how deep one is into prog -> farm (or, how mistake-prone one's party is). "Diversifying" tanks in that way merely obliges tank players to level all 4 and for each fight to take only 1-2 particular tank jobs for their given degree of progression.

Or, more shortly put, those "identities" would just necessitate more job-leveling grinds while greatly reducing job choice for all tanks.

I did say those tanks as example cause GNB and DRK have magic defense in thier kit evne though GNB has one and PLD has shieldtron, cover, intervene, sentinel, and divine veilf or a shield. I mean if other jobs had more diversity that would be nice to see so it snot some of teh same classes i usually see when doing content.

[Alice_Rivers]

I do wonder if people here would be so happy if the shoe were on the other foot. If, for example, holy stun didn't have limited uses making all tanks and other healers inferior picks for party compositions in normal content. I mean, that's fine. Right?

[ApolloGenX]

It's really annoying when people keep arguing that being required because you gimped tank healing is the same as fun. It's not. Paper tanks are not fun. Healing is not fun.

Making tanks suck won't fix healing.

[Alice_Rivers]

It's really annoying when people keep arguing that being required because you gimped tank healing is the same as fun. It's not. Paper tanks are not fun. Healing is not fun.

Making tanks suck won't fix healing.

As far as I'm concerned it is not a necessity that tanks must suck in order for healing to be needed, or is it your opinion that tanks needing healer is by definition sucking? As someone said somewhere and I agreed "tanks should be hard to kill" but not impossible. I've done immortality in Star Trek Online in the highest level content that game had and yeah, it was fun for a while but then it got old and boring, it's a big part of why I don't play the game anymore despite being a massive (TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT era) Trek fan.

If we intend to keep the healing role, no job should be immortal, it's antithetical to having healers.