The difficulty of normal content is great as is. Do not revert them.

[Alice_Rivers]

Because it doesn't have to be braindead. But SE shot themselves in the head by removing everything everything else but encounter mechanics. They removed CCs (well, they are still there), they made tanks completely independent of healers, etc.
So, the only thing they can act on to make a fight harder is to make more (or less) telegraphed mechanics and make them more or less punishing.

In other words there's plenty of room to improve the game's difficulty and engagement factor, the infrastructure is already there, they need only use it. But tell me, if MSQ content "doesn't have to be braindead", why is it that you appear to be advocating exactly that?

IMHO, that is because the class progression for most ARR jobs is backwards. For WHM, lily should never have been lvl 52, it should be something you get on lvl 10 as soon as you get your other healing buttons (okay, maybe lvl 30). So that when someone starts a CNJ at lvl 1, they don't have to spend 52 levels spamming cure II.

Lilies being level 52 is perfectly reasonable from my standpoint. You spend level 15 to 30 learning how to heal (and preferably mix in some damage too), level 30-50 with cure 2 learning to be more measured, to judge when and how much to heal, then at level 52 they give you your first instant cast GCD heal. I consider it to be good pacing, it fits with your character learning more white magic, it fits a reasonable pacing of actual player skill. What it is not is an excuse to just press cure 1 or 2, worse at level 80+ when you should be versed with Asylum, Tetragrammaton, Benediction, Divine Benison and doing weaves like Regen > Divine Benison > Afflatus Solace > Tetragammaton if things are really dire.

[TDawnstar]

In other words there's plenty of room to improve the game's difficulty and engagement factor, the infrastructure is already there, they need only use it. But tell me, if MSQ content "doesn't have to be braindead", why is it that you appear to be advocating exactly that?

Me? I'm among the minority on the forum who thinks EW dungeons and raids were fine. If anything, I think that DT trials have been easier to handle than EW trials, because I still have PTSD from Zodiark and to lesser extent Meteion.

But that's details, the issue is that SE needs to stop base everything on mechanics and bring back player power and skills. Then, difficult content will be able to get gated by these as well, not just by reaction speed and memorization of patterns.

[Alice_Rivers]

I see, personally I didn't have much of a problem with either of those trials outside of extremes, but it's good that we can agree that pattern memorization shouldn't be everything. I would like to see more control mechanics but that would also require them to go back and force people to learn how interrupts work, the number of times the master of the hyperboreia has completed that cast is a testament to that.

Fundamentally I want the game a little harder, I don't have lightning reflexes and my memory hates important information like Garleans hate Eorzeans, hence I don't attempt savage content. But then, as we've established here, memory and reflexes are not the only form of difficulty or even the only kind the game is built for.

[TDawnstar]

I see, personally I didn't have much of a problem with either of those trials outside of extremes, but it's good that we can agree that pattern memorization shouldn't be everything. I would like to see more control mechanics but that would also require them to go back and force people to learn how interrupts work, the number of times the master of the hyperboreia has completed that cast is a testament to that.

Oh dear, don't even get me started about interrupts (or lack thereof). But yes, that's typically something that could be added to bosses (reminds me of Essence of Souls in WoW, where you had to kick everything to prevent your tank from getting a dmg debuff. Things like add phases, cleaves etc. also used to be a thing back in ARR/HW, but then were essentially phased out from the raids. Everthing is about solving the visual puzzles at this point, which is somewhat sad, I suppose.

[jdtuggey]

But that's details, the issue is that SE needs to stop base everything on mechanics and bring back player power and skills. Then, difficult content will be able to get gated by these as well, not just by reaction speed and memorization of patterns.

By player power, do you mean gear ? Like, I play this game on and off, I sub for 3 months, then I unsub for 3 more, come back for 3 months, that sort of pattern.
Having a system where I need to spend significant time "catching up" each time I resub would make resubbing a lot less appealing.

Player skills, well... If you mean talent, I'd classify being able to handle mechanics and push decent dps is skill ?
Like, you'd know this if you did savage/ult prog, but not only you need to handle the mechanics there, you need to push dps hard as much as you can, while moving, often, while preparing for the next mechanic.
There's a lot of space between the floor of the casual content and the floor to prog Savage and especially ultimates ? I'd call that gap "skill" ? Like, execution actually matters there.
Even in dungeons, like, memorizing the patterns is the low bar, you can set yourself a higher bar and do "push dps hard as much as you can, even while moving, while preparing for the next mechanic", you'll make a better experience for everyone in your party, and it certainly does look to me like there's a skill gap even in that niche, some players definitely do a lot better than other players in dungeons, even if both players execute mechanics perfectly and know the patterns perfectly. And well, if your party plays well enough, you might even be rewarded by having less mechanics to deal with.
If you mean buttons on your hotbar, don't we have enough ? :P

How would you even define skill if not how I defined it there ?

[TDawnstar]

By player power, do you mean gear ? Like, I play this game on and off, I sub for 3 months, then I unsub for 3 more, come back for 3 months, that sort of pattern.

Not just gear (because gear is subject to change), but things like attribute points, skill points, mastery tracks and passive points (see GW2), unlockable talent trees, etc. Anything that adds power but not necessarily being gear-based.

Having a system where I need to spend significant time "catching up" each time I resub would make resubbing a lot less appealing.

That is totally understandable and fair. But in the long run, the instant catch-up is IMHO doing more harm than good for the overall health of the game.

Double down and go harder if anything. I want more midcore to bridge the difficulty tiers.

Oh, I think that FFXIV absolutely needs more midcore content, don't get me wrong. But whether a) the normal raids should be it and b) whether they should be accessible via DF rather than PF is another question entirely.

[jdtuggey]

Not just gear (because gear is subject to change), but things like attribute points, skill points, mastery tracks and passive points (see GW2), unlockable talent trees, etc. Anything that adds power but not necessarily being gear-based.

We're still making choices like that. I'm doing better on my summoner since I adjusted my spell speed for optimal alignment of my cooldowns.
They're less significant than many other mmo, but also they're not nearly as insignificant as you think ?

Concerning talent trees, there was this really good MMO that really emphasized talent trees like... ~10-15 years ago ?
It was called Rift. Man I loved that game, you could match 3 talent trees out of a selection of trees that were available to your class.
I loved theorycrafting all kind of weird builds. The reality though is that most people just googled optimal builds and the game fell into obscurity despite having pretty great wow-style content and a fair amount of budget at its prime.
SWTOR also has talent trees, and it's fairly successful and long running, but the talent trees are an afterthought, and they've been simplifying them over the years because players don't want to engage with that.
Players just want an optimal tree, so might as well give the benefits of an optimal tree to everybody. :P

That is totally understandable and fair. But in the long run, the instant catch-up is IMHO doing more harm than good for the overall health of the game.

I think Square has data on this, and their choices to move away from that kind of system was informed by that.
I haven't seen a single MMO like this do as well as FFXIV does ? Not even wow at this point. Though if you want that, I think Wow or GW2 can fit that need pretty neatly.
(To be fair, wow probably has catch-up mechanics too at this point... Because you know... I think players prefer that)
Like, FFXIV has been working like this for a very long time, and it's only growing in popularity ? (Speaking as general trend, there's highs and lows ofc)

Oh, I think that FFXIV absolutely needs more midcore content, don't get me wrong. But whether a) the normal raids should be it and b) whether they should be accessible via DF rather than PF is another question entirely.

Or maybe Normal Raids via duty finder is that, and you just need to give a moment for the expansion to land, for people to learn and adapt to it, for gear to be released (doesn't matter if you don't do savage, people around you will start to do the content and lift you up with them) and other stuff like that to happen.

Like, there's some things that could be added to ffxiv to make the experience more interesting, and I'd love to have this discussion, but not in the context that ffxiv is not okay and needs to change.
And even less in the context that it needs to be like other X game. It's fine, lol, even after dawntrail. ;p

[TDawnstar]

We're still making choices like that. I'm doing better on my summoner since I adjusted my spell speed for optimal alignment of my cooldowns.
They're less significant than many other mmo, but also they're not nearly as insignificant as you think ?

It's a joke compared to what it could be. Stats were simplified into oblivion since ARR times, and secondary stats are unbalanced as well as crit overpowers everything 95% of the time.
And as a healer main... mana is pretty much irrelevant unless you die, and piety may as well not be there.

Concerning talent trees, there was this really good MMO that really emphasized talent trees like... ~10-15 years ago ?
It was called Rift. Man I loved that game, you could match 3 talent trees out of a selection of trees that were available to your class.

It doesn't have necessary to be trees per se. A very good recent implementation of character power was Lost Ark, where you have stuff like talent points, tripods etc. all making your character a lot more powerful before gear even kicks in.
Unfortunately, its developers decided to shoot themselves in the foot XD

I haven't seen a single MMO like this do as well as FFXIV does ? Not even wow at this point. Though if you want that, I think Wow or GW2 can fit that need pretty neatly.

Well, let's put it this way: even in the peak low that was Shadowlands, WoW was probably having more subscriptions than FF does. Now, that doesn't mean that we need FFXIV to copy WoW (far from it), but putting FFXIV on top is very optimistic to say the least.

Or maybe Normal Raids via duty finder is that, and you just need to give a moment for the expansion to land, for people to learn and adapt to it, for gear to be released (doesn't matter if you don't do savage, people around you will start to do the content and lift you up with them) and other stuff like that to happen.

I would be simply happy if they unscrewed the netcode and made it as reactive as WoW or GW2. There is some stuff you should be able to avoid with twitch reflexes, and currently the netcode is preventing that.
Also, having a "foll" button like in GW2 would help a lot, I feel.

[jdtuggey]

Why do you want to change this instead of playing these games ?