SMN: why developers hate SMN so much?

[Connor]

It doesn't really read as a Support job. Seeing its animations especially as another player you see it as a DPS even if a lot of its moves have support options, RDM reads far better as the support caster because of the big shield vercure and mass res also the damage buff is more noticeable. Personally I don't think its a good way to go for SMN to become a support, RDM will always be superior to it. Genuinely think this version of SMN is compatible with a dot system, maybe not like damage dots but weakness dots like RPR's weakness dot but make SMN have mutiple that relate to buffing the summon's damage and convert some of the spells during summon phase as commands/abilities. But yeah I don't think the support option works, I think something akin to a Demonology Warlock from wow would work better for new SMN.

Personally I’d Summoner’s versatility/utility as a caster has practically always been its defining feature compared to Black Mage, even going back to 2.0 with things like Eye for an Eye / Shadow Flare / Virus. They just decided that they’d represent that going forward with ‘trololol lock it all behind a Demi’ instead of actually giving it something interesting or exciting lol. I think Summoner could easily lean towards being a ‘support caster’ that differentiates itself with more convoluted utility than Red Mage. Like the difference between healing as a WHM or a SCH lol.

Like, I always thought a 30/60 second cool-down single buff ability that changes depending on which Egi phase you’re on would be something make Egis more of a decision and not just ‘do I want to spam jump while attacking or do I want to pretend I’m a real caster lol’.

And I mean, isn’t Summoner in the same position as Bard? It can’t have high dps like Black Mage and Pictomancer, it can’t have support like Red Mage. So what does it get? Middling dps and some ‘meh’ support that doesn’t make much difference (excluding Raise mostly but the value of that is also highly situational)

Not saying they should go all-in on making it support, but I definitely think it’s always been an aspect of the job so I’d hate to see them throw it away

[Dogempire]

I just wanna know why they spent the effort to rebuild the job to a classic FF image just to completely botch the vibe on it the next expansion. A lot of people bailed off of it due to that.

Of all the history of summons and how they fit into this game, from Shvia to Leviathan to Ramuh to maybe Alexander for the FF9 theme going on in DT.

But no, lets do Bahamut yet again and lets do the worst take on Bahamut in FF history. The only thing that would drive more people off of SMN is if Smile played when you Summoned the new Bahamut.

Honestly, if they did Solar Bahamut BUT after Solar Bahamut you got Shiva, Leviathan, and Ramuh, then they would be cooking.

But then again, I guess the devs don't want to put too much work into summoner, even if it's just adding fancy new skills that are essentially just reskins of existing skills

[gumas]

Honestly, if they did Solar Bahamut BUT after Solar Bahamut you got Shiva, Leviathan, and Ramuh, then they would be cooking.

But then again, I guess the devs don't want to put too much work into summoner, even if it's just adding fancy new skills that are essentially just reskins of existing skills

this is my take too, even if they cant think what to do with smn, at the very least a cosmetic upgrade (with potential upgrade obviously) is already better than nothing, just change ifrit, titan and garuda with shiva leviathan and ramuh, even if it same skill, even the animation uprade alone will make us happy somewhat

[Ramiee]

Snip

I always saw SMN support to be on the level of melee DPS like MNK. I don't really think anyone would ever call MNK a support role though.
If they want SMN to be a support caster they need better reading animations IMO and something that makes their support engaging.
I think their current support is fine maybe remove the heal from solar bahamut since phoenix exists.
Personally I find PCT to have much better utility then SMN so I believe the only real reason it doesn't do much damage is because CBU3 thinks it's too easy to do good damage.

The new egi-system can't be a decision based thing because of how it's designed, it's burst oriented so there's always going to be an optimal rotation under raid buffs. That's why I think the only way it can be fixed is having something outside of it to manage like weakness dots. It's like how PCTs muses are balanced because you have to prepare them so they aren't brainless to use, but with SMN it's literally all prepared in one Demi-Summon.

I wouldn't really compare SMN to BRD because SMN is in a much better place than it, all of the Phys range have been really bad since SHB but EW BRD is insanely punishing for no payoff. At least SMN is easy for it's middling damage.
I also don't want it to lose raidbuffs or it's regen from phoenix, I just think the idea of it becoming a support caster is stupid imo. Give it RPR/MNK levels of support.

[remiff]

The problem with the rework of the Summoner is that it was poorly designed, which is an undeniable fact.
To save development resources, they completely removed the usefulness of Carbuncle.

They kept the Aetherflow system, which does not fit at all with the new design.

Instead of providing tools to move when it's really necessary, like the old Summoner's "Trance of Bahamut," Egi-Assault x4, 4 stacks of Ruin IV, and Demi-Phoenix, they gave us a Summoner in the caster category that struggles to identify with the category.
The developers don't really know where to place it—whether it's a ranged physical DPS or a caster.

I'm sorry, but no matter how accessible the job is, the Summoner alone breaks the balance of the category.
For example, the Pictomancer has the perfect kit; with its basic combos, it can accumulate 5 stacks of free mobility or have a dash to move when it's really necessary.

The Summoner has superfluous mobility.

The only danger is the use of Ifrit, but all the demi-summons are copied and pasted from one another,
ifrit is the only summon with any identity.

Everyone swiftcasts Garuda, and most of the time it's not difficult to leave the DOT zone under the bosses.
Titan is just no-brain and is the best elemental summon in the kit, ahead of Garuda and Ifrit, even though it requires the least effort.

They had a usable foundation provided it was properly reworked.

They could have removed the extremely long elemental summon GCDs or made them OGCDs and allowed weaving with an instant spell like the old Ruin II or IV.
They should have made the demi-summons different, as there’s no reason for them to be copies of each other.

The Summoner should be one of the classes with the most diversity in its kit; each summon and demi-summon should be a sort of mini-game.

Summoners should have had a new resource system, but the job designers were excessively lazy and lacked originality.
In terms of originality and etineration, it’s absolutely the worst design possible—the current Summoner.

I honestly think they can't design a job worse than the Summoner.

[Khryseis_Astra]

Honestly, if they did Solar Bahamut BUT after Solar Bahamut you got Shiva, Leviathan, and Ramuh, then they would be cooking.

But then again, I guess the devs don't want to put too much work into summoner, even if it's just adding fancy new skills that are essentially just reskins of existing skills

This is my biggest disappointment… I like new SMN but I want the other 3 elemental primals as gem summons. If they separate all 6 into astral and umbral teams, even better. It feels weird getting another Demi when the rotation in-between hasn’t been changed.

[Equitable_Remedy]

SMN: why developers hate SMN so much?

Assume facts not in evidence.

People pretend like SMN was the most popular class in the game before the rework, but it absolutely was not. WAY more SMN players post-rework than before. Now, maybe players are just masochists and love playing classes that they hate. OR maybe the rework was better than it seems from social media.

[Ramiee]

Assume facts not in evidence.

People pretend like SMN was the most popular class in the game before the rework, but it absolutely was not. WAY more SMN players post-rework than before. Now, maybe players are just masochists and love playing classes that they hate. OR maybe the rework was better than it seems from social media.

It's because it's easy. That's it.
SMN players don't care about the job they play it because it's easy just like how dancer is the most popular Phys range, it's why warrior is the most popular tank. If SMN suddenly became hard and BLM became brain-dead people would go to BLM. A lot of people don't want to get good at the game and just want to play the story. This doesn't make the rework good it just makes it the noob job that people play when they want to play super casually.

All MMOs have classes like this and they're always the most popular class in the game, they are also normally really badly designed because they're designed to be played by people who don't even read tooltips.

[Anvaire]

It's because it's easy. That's it.
SMN players don't care about the job they play it because it's easy just like how dancer is the most popular Phys range, it's why warrior is the most popular tank. If SMN suddenly became hard and BLM became brain-dead people would go to BLM. A lot of people don't want to get good at the game and just want to play the story. This doesn't make the rework good it just makes it the noob job that people play when they want to play super casually.

All MMOs have classes like this and they're always the most popular class in the game, they are also normally really badly designed because they're designed to be played by people who don't even read tooltips.

Which is fine if you introduce a new job to satisfy this. Not so much if you gut a job to do it.

[Dogempire]

This is my biggest disappointment… I like new SMN but I want the other 3 elemental primals as gem summons. If they separate all 6 into astral and umbral teams, even better. It feels weird getting another Demi when the rotation in-between hasn’t been changed.

Honestly, they could have also done something cool with the summons, like Ramuh summons an arbiter which is basically the MCH turret that gives what I'll call "Judgement stacks" and then you get judgement volt as the long-cast nuke at the end that deals extra damage based on how many hits your arbiter gets off

Shiva's rotation basically consists of using bow, staff, and then sword and maybe some sort of long-cast AoE ice DoT that freezes trash mobs for 3-4s

Not sure what we could do with Leviathan, maybe it could basically be the no-cast time summon like Titan with the single or multi-target hit with an OGCD that you weave, so that it still feels coherent with the previous summons where you just use it when you have to move without having to worry about anything.

Ramuh would basically be Garuda, Shiva would be Ifrit, and then Leviathan would just be Titan with the first 2 having a gimmick and the 3rd being free use