Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[MikkoAkure]

Usually when people die in the FF14 universe, their force ghosts are sitting in the afterlife, they can watch people on the star doing stuff, make commentary, maybe pop in and do us a favor. They can still interact with and impact the world. Emet-Selch and Hyth helped save the universe after they died. That's not possible with the Endless because we shut them down without a second thought. We dissipated the part of them that hangs out in the afterlife and narrates.

Not true.

Normally when people die in the FFXIV universe, they go to the Lifestream where their memory aether is washed off their soul before their soul is reused and born again. They're not watching anything and certainly not interacting with anyone.

You really can't compare the normal process to what happens with Emet-Selch, who spent 12,000 years as a ghost and before that was an Ancient tasked with overseeing the Underworld (Lifestream) itself. After the events of EW MSQ are dealt with, he finally allows his spirit to go back to the Lifestream to go through the normal process. That's not something most people can do and I have no idea where you got the idea that it was possible for more mundane people.

And the argument that we had to because they need something from us that would harm us doesn't work because that's true for any conflict. If we wipe out the Mamool Ja then they can't attack the Xbr'aal for their land anymore. If we wiped out the Garleans then they can't drop moons on people. Wiping out an entire population pretty much solves any conflict with any group. So why do we bother looking for other ways in those situations? We could just wipe them out and declare "we had no choice."

The difference is that the Endless are already dead.

You can't compare civilizations of living, breathing people with a collection of simulacra made from dead peoples' memories. And besides, multiple Endless are OK with their passing, one actively pursues it, another doesn't care either way, and another expresses disgust at the idea of continuing at the cost of living people.

The actual civilization of Alexandria is still there and is thriving. No culture is erased, no living people are wiped out. Just the over-complicated graveyard that no one even knows exists beyond the fact there's a "cloud".

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Not true.

Normally when people die in the FFXIV universe, they go to the Lifestream where their memory aether is washed off their soul before their soul is reused and born again. They're not watching anything and certainly not interacting with anyone.

You really can't compare the normal process to what happens with Emet-Selch, who spent 12,000 years as a ghost and before that was an Ancient tasked with overseeing the Underworld (Lifestream) itself. After the events of EW MSQ are dealt with, he finally allows his spirit to go back to the Lifestream to go through the normal process. That's not something most people can do and I have no idea where you got the idea that it was possible for more mundane people.

We walked down there. We fought old foes. We interacted with Minfilia, Papalymo, Hauchefant, Yasale. They were more faded than the people with more unresolved issues like Asahi, but they were very much down there chillaxing and able to view the living world because Emet-Selch narrates EW and Asahi was big mad about Amon parading around in his body and betraying Zenos. So while yes, they break down in the aetherial sea, they do so slowly. Slowly enough to reconnect with their loved ones before fading away. Or at least it very much seems so from what I've seen. It looks like the souls in the aetherial sea are still self-aware and active. Active enough to both fight us and protect us.

[Arzalis]

You can't compare civilizations of living, breathing people with a collection of simulacra made from dead peoples' memories. And besides, multiple Endless are OK with their passing, one actively pursues it, another doesn't care either way, and another expresses disgust at the idea of continuing at the cost of living people.

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

[Alchemii]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

I question if these writers even bothered playing the MSQ at this point. It feels like they were just given cliff notes of what makes a "FFXIV MSQ per Expansion" and just followed those, but you know in a way that could only be done by somebody incompetent.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

All the Convocation members besides the Unsundered would be Sundered working towards the rejoining. So, got 10 there and there are also lower tier Ascians working towards the rejoining, like the lady in the Shadowbringers bar and even Warriors of Light on the First who flip sides. So yeah, there are tons of Sundered working towards a rejoining. Heck, even Varis was working towards a full rejoining just to spite his grandfather. And while I'm still not sure how doing the thing the person wants you to do is an act of rebellion, he was still actively attempting to cause calamities. Good thing we didn't do a survey. 10/10 Ascians we spoke with are in full support of a rejoining.

[Jamini]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

Honestly, it feels like a lot of people didn't bother reading the story/lore of the Last Dregs. At all. Basically nothing created within Ultima Thule has a soul by definition, yet they are treated by that writer as full creatures with thoughts and worthy of dignity and respect by the writers of those quests.

The Endless...didn't get that. While they are an AI replica of a once-living creature that very clearly do not have a soul, they very much do experience new (if curated) experiences and develop new ideas and connections. Most if not all of them likely would have passed a Turing Test with flying colors. If the MSQ didn't go well out of its way to repeatedly reassure us that destroying them was kosher I suspect more people would be upset.

Part of it is also likely tied to real-life beliefs. I personally do not believe souls exist. For me, destruction of someone's memory that has been preserved would be the equivalent of murder...worse than murder in a civilization where memory transference would be a thing. (Eclipse Phase, Altered Carbon). For someone that follows a classic abrahamic religion the creation of a soulless memory would be borderline sacrilegious (A mockery of life, man attempting to play God) and the destruction of a soulless automaton would be perfectly acceptable.

I'm going to continue personally stating that I see the Endless akin to the Sundered, as the Sundered are akin to the Ancients. We destroyed them so that we may live, and this is acceptable. That we did not mourn or protest the situation further (or at least get more than a single option to do so) is what angers me, and makes us not much better than Emet was.

[AnotherPerson]

Not true.

Normally when people die in the FFXIV universe, they go to the Lifestream where their memory aether is washed off their soul before their soul is reused and born again. They're not watching anything and certainly not interacting with anyone.

You really can't compare the normal process to what happens with Emet-Selch, who spent 12,000 years as a ghost and before that was an Ancient tasked with overseeing the Underworld (Lifestream) itself. After the events of EW MSQ are dealt with, he finally allows his spirit to go back to the Lifestream to go through the normal process. That's not something most people can do and I have no idea where you got the idea that it was possible for more mundane people.

Asahi literally mentions watching Amon puppeteer his body against Zenos and getting mad. Asahi dies in Stormblood. It is later revealed it is Fandaniel who taken over his body.

The only way Asahi knows it is Amon is puppeteering his body and not Fandaniel is if he was able to watch the events unfolding from Shadowbringers to Endwalker the entire time. Same person, but the person who pops up in the Aetherial Sea is Amon. Asahi should not be aware of any of this if he wasn't able to see the events unfolding.