Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Basteala]

Congratulations, you realized the plot of the zone.

We don't hold any authority in Sphene's kingdom and don't have the right to wander around switching off parts of her realm as we please. The only reason why we do it is because one of the Endless asked for it, but she doesn't have the right to make the decision for all of them either.

Also the fact that Sphene was going to consume our world's aether to sustain the Endless. That's...kind of an important detail. Remember that shutting down the Meso Terminal would have switched them off in the end, anyway.

Note 1: if Endless are your precious citizens, dear Sphene, why the heck didn't you try to protect them? Put at least some guards around monoliths, you know? Especially considering that you saw and knew that we, hostile forces, have arrived into Living Memory.

Because crossing the rift is considered impossible. Sphene DID take the key with her, and the Living Memory is not entirely bereft of security. It IS very much a security by obscurity situation--which is a fallacy in and of itself--but to say the terminals were out in the open for anyone to shut down is erroneous.

Why we do even have to erase them instead of just shutting the system down?

It's explicitly stated that shutting down the terminal erases them. It probably works similar to RAM on a PC. Once you stop providing power, the data is lost.


Note 2: when the fight with Robo-Sphene starts and she talks again about protecting her precious Endless, why couldn't anyone tell her - sorry, lady, we just erased all of them, so you don't have the reason to fight anymore?

Now, one could counterargument that we are effectively at war with Sphene's nation and we make harsh decisions in extreme circumstances. But erasing Endless doesn't serve to diminish Sphene's battle power. We are just targeting civilians, which is a warcrime - at least from Sphene's point of view.

Because she said her people. There are still plenty of living, breathing subjects of Alexandria in Everkeep, and Heritage Found, come to think of it.,

Summary. I have a feeling that thay wanted no matter to implement the art decision of shutting down the beatiful realm, because they knew it would have emotional impact. But in doing so, they hammered the whole plot logic into a very questionable, to say the least, writing.

What do you think?

There's some flaws in Living Memory's writing, but I think it comes more from the poor handling of urgency at the very beginning, that sets up the whole premise of the zone, rather than the zone story itself.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Swear to god, SE mistake with the FFXIV storyline was making the WoL be Azem and this whole debacle about the Ancients, it backfired so hard to the point of people genuine believe the Ancients are right and they just fully embrace all the twisted logic from them in order to uphold arguments to future story points. Yeesh.

It's not even that. It's that the morals of DT contradict the morals of ShB. If the Sundered had the right to live even though they aren't life as recognized by Emet-Selch, then why don't the Endless even if they aren't life as recognized by Cahcuia? We're acting like Ascians, down to playing with our food before the kill. There is no functional change in what happens in DT if we just sit in lawn chairs and wait for Sphene to finish reformatting so we can kill her. Everything shuts down anyway. But instead we're playing with these people right before wiping them from existence. It's sick.

*snip*

Given they will be destroyed anyway, there is absolutely no reason to do what we did. There is no benefit to it besides it was fun for the characters. They throw in some bull about "you live as long as you're remembered" but that doesn't extend to the guy I bought popcorn from one time. I'm sure that applies to the people you actually know and think about.

That only works if Sphene didn't see us there before starting the reformatting. Not only does she know we're there, living people used to be in Living Memory and the ziplines actually still have security.

The problem in the writing is it prioritizes the emotions it wants you to feel over what makes logical sense or how real people would behave in that situation. If my mom's memories are in a virtual world and what I'm about to do next shuts down that world, we're spending the whole time Sphene is reformatting looking for a USB stick. No joke. I'm not consigning my mom's memories to oblivion due to some vague "everything that lives must die." For one, she did die, that's why she's here. And her soul is being reincarnated, what's in Living Memory is what the universe throws away and while her memories might not be of value to nature or the star, they'd be of value to me.

Imagine if Erenville could take his mom with him on his adventures. He's only 25. He has centuries more life left where he'll never speak to his mom again. And what about Krile? There was still so much her e-parents could have told her. Even if they were "just" information, they were valuable information. Information worth at least attempting to save.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Usually when people die in the FF14 universe, their force ghosts are sitting in the afterlife, they can watch people on the star doing stuff, make commentary, maybe pop in and do us a favor. They can still interact with and impact the world. Emet-Selch and Hyth helped save the universe after they died. That's not possible with the Endless because we shut them down without a second thought. We dissipated the part of them that hangs out in the afterlife and narrates.

And the argument that we had to because they need something from us that would harm us doesn't work because that's true for any conflict. If we wipe out the Mamool Ja then they can't attack the Xbr'aal for their land anymore. If we wiped out the Garleans then they can't drop moons on people. Wiping out an entire population pretty much solves any conflict with any group. So why do we bother looking for other ways in those situations? We could just wipe them out and declare "we had no choice."

Also, for the people who believe Venat "had no choice" but to sunder the world because otherwise the Ancients would have died out, but also believe death is a natural part of life, how do you reconcile it being acceptable to mutilate an entire race to avoid it's possible end, with it's wrong to not accept the end?

[OMGJesuis66]

It's not even that. It's that the morals of DT contradict the morals of ShB. If the Sundered had the right to live even though they aren't life as recognized by Emet-Selch, then why don't the Endless even if they aren't life as recognized by Cahcuia? We're acting like Ascians, down to playing with our food before the kill. There is no functional change in what happens in DT if we just sit in lawn chairs and wait for Sphene to finish reformatting so we can kill her. Everything shuts down anyway. But instead we're playing with these people right before wiping them from existence. It's sick.

No. It doesn't. Because that is a false symmetry and twisted logic. We are not acting like Emet-Selch. The Sundered are living beings, of flesh and bone, they are born, they grow up, and die. They are a completely functional new form of life. The Endless, are not. An Endless cannot be born. An Endless cannot die. An Endless cannot eat. An Endless cannot drink. They have no biological or moral functions beyond what the data of the terminals processed to give them a form and a sense of self-awareness and free will. They are, simply put, a ghosts unable to move on to the afterlife, because they have this 'afterlife' built to them at the cost of the living.

Usually when people die in the FF14 universe, their force ghosts are sitting in the afterlife, they can watch people on the star doing stuff, make commentary, maybe pop in and do us a favor. They can still interact with and impact the world. Emet-Selch and Hyth helped save the universe after they died. That's not possible with the Endless because we shut them down without a second thought. We dissipated the part of them that hangs out in the afterlife and narrates.

Also, for the people who believe Venat "had no choice" but to sunder the world because otherwise the Ancients would have died out, but also believe death is a natural part of life, how do you reconcile it being acceptable to mutilate an entire race to avoid it's possible end, with it's wrong to not accept the end?

There we go, 'VENAT BAD'. This idolatry towards the Ancients proved my point. Again, the people in Living Memory are akin to an afterlife in the Aetherial Sea. Not only they are disconnected from it, but they are also disconnected from the outside world and NO ONE from the living world can remember them. It is a forgotten mausoleum that devours life to sustain false life, there is no actual logic to sustain the argument that 'we did a bad thing'. We didn't. We helped spirits to find their rest. If you want to genuinely make this argument now, why are not making the same argument of how sick it was that by defeating Emet and Elidibus, we stopped all possibilities of rejoining, thus condemning thousands of souls inside Zodiark to never be reborn and to be erased? Oh yeah, and we also kill Zodiark afterward. Man, what a tragedy right? Clearly a genocide.

[MikkoAkure]

Usually when people die in the FF14 universe, their force ghosts are sitting in the afterlife, they can watch people on the star doing stuff, make commentary, maybe pop in and do us a favor. They can still interact with and impact the world. Emet-Selch and Hyth helped save the universe after they died. That's not possible with the Endless because we shut them down without a second thought. We dissipated the part of them that hangs out in the afterlife and narrates.

Not true.

Normally when people die in the FFXIV universe, they go to the Lifestream where their memory aether is washed off their soul before their soul is reused and born again. They're not watching anything and certainly not interacting with anyone.

You really can't compare the normal process to what happens with Emet-Selch, who spent 12,000 years as a ghost and before that was an Ancient tasked with overseeing the Underworld (Lifestream) itself. After the events of EW MSQ are dealt with, he finally allows his spirit to go back to the Lifestream to go through the normal process. That's not something most people can do and I have no idea where you got the idea that it was possible for more mundane people.

And the argument that we had to because they need something from us that would harm us doesn't work because that's true for any conflict. If we wipe out the Mamool Ja then they can't attack the Xbr'aal for their land anymore. If we wiped out the Garleans then they can't drop moons on people. Wiping out an entire population pretty much solves any conflict with any group. So why do we bother looking for other ways in those situations? We could just wipe them out and declare "we had no choice."

The difference is that the Endless are already dead.

You can't compare civilizations of living, breathing people with a collection of simulacra made from dead peoples' memories. And besides, multiple Endless are OK with their passing, one actively pursues it, another doesn't care either way, and another expresses disgust at the idea of continuing at the cost of living people.

The actual civilization of Alexandria is still there and is thriving. No culture is erased, no living people are wiped out. Just the over-complicated graveyard that no one even knows exists beyond the fact there's a "cloud".

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Not true.

Normally when people die in the FFXIV universe, they go to the Lifestream where their memory aether is washed off their soul before their soul is reused and born again. They're not watching anything and certainly not interacting with anyone.

You really can't compare the normal process to what happens with Emet-Selch, who spent 12,000 years as a ghost and before that was an Ancient tasked with overseeing the Underworld (Lifestream) itself. After the events of EW MSQ are dealt with, he finally allows his spirit to go back to the Lifestream to go through the normal process. That's not something most people can do and I have no idea where you got the idea that it was possible for more mundane people.

We walked down there. We fought old foes. We interacted with Minfilia, Papalymo, Hauchefant, Yasale. They were more faded than the people with more unresolved issues like Asahi, but they were very much down there chillaxing and able to view the living world because Emet-Selch narrates EW and Asahi was big mad about Amon parading around in his body and betraying Zenos. So while yes, they break down in the aetherial sea, they do so slowly. Slowly enough to reconnect with their loved ones before fading away. Or at least it very much seems so from what I've seen. It looks like the souls in the aetherial sea are still self-aware and active. Active enough to both fight us and protect us.

[Arzalis]

You can't compare civilizations of living, breathing people with a collection of simulacra made from dead peoples' memories. And besides, multiple Endless are OK with their passing, one actively pursues it, another doesn't care either way, and another expresses disgust at the idea of continuing at the cost of living people.

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

[Alchemii]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

I question if these writers even bothered playing the MSQ at this point. It feels like they were just given cliff notes of what makes a "FFXIV MSQ per Expansion" and just followed those, but you know in a way that could only be done by somebody incompetent.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

We talked to a total of three or four people out of what the game tells us is at least thousands. I'm sure the Ascians could've found a couple sundered who would be cool with the rejoining too.

There were just so many better ways to handle the last zone, even if you came to the same ultimate conclusion, and the writer opted to take none of them. They tried to force feed us an answer (which is an issue most of DT has tbh) instead of actually exploring the question.

All the Convocation members besides the Unsundered would be Sundered working towards the rejoining. So, got 10 there and there are also lower tier Ascians working towards the rejoining, like the lady in the Shadowbringers bar and even Warriors of Light on the First who flip sides. So yeah, there are tons of Sundered working towards a rejoining. Heck, even Varis was working towards a full rejoining just to spite his grandfather. And while I'm still not sure how doing the thing the person wants you to do is an act of rebellion, he was still actively attempting to cause calamities. Good thing we didn't do a survey. 10/10 Ascians we spoke with are in full support of a rejoining.

[Jamini]

Good thing the game already did this with the UT society quests and straight up told us, "Yeah, they have a different existence, but they're still alive and worth treating as such." This is already a solved question in FFXIV. It's just obvious the writer for DT literally didn't know about those quests and came to a completely different conclusion in a far less convincing way.

Honestly, it feels like a lot of people didn't bother reading the story/lore of the Last Dregs. At all. Basically nothing created within Ultima Thule has a soul by definition, yet they are treated by that writer as full creatures with thoughts and worthy of dignity and respect by the writers of those quests.

The Endless...didn't get that. While they are an AI replica of a once-living creature that very clearly do not have a soul, they very much do experience new (if curated) experiences and develop new ideas and connections. Most if not all of them likely would have passed a Turing Test with flying colors. If the MSQ didn't go well out of its way to repeatedly reassure us that destroying them was kosher I suspect more people would be upset.

Part of it is also likely tied to real-life beliefs. I personally do not believe souls exist. For me, destruction of someone's memory that has been preserved would be the equivalent of murder...worse than murder in a civilization where memory transference would be a thing. (Eclipse Phase, Altered Carbon). For someone that follows a classic abrahamic religion the creation of a soulless memory would be borderline sacrilegious (A mockery of life, man attempting to play God) and the destruction of a soulless automaton would be perfectly acceptable.

I'm going to continue personally stating that I see the Endless akin to the Sundered, as the Sundered are akin to the Ancients. We destroyed them so that we may live, and this is acceptable. That we did not mourn or protest the situation further (or at least get more than a single option to do so) is what angers me, and makes us not much better than Emet was.