Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[OMGJesuis66]

It’s funny that you call other people speed-readers while ignoring the game’s lore yourself. Classic.
Suggestion for you: go read the Unending Codex entry on souls that got added this very patch.
Also, consider whether Cahciua telling us something- immediately after requesting we do a horrific action that would never otherwise be considered- means her words are objective truth in-universe, or her own biased outlook.

Unrelated to you, I had a real good laugh reading a reply that says Endless don’t respond to stimuli. That’s a good one, gamers. Almost as good as ‘they’re copies’ or ‘they’re chatGPT’.

The lore entry about souls, as stipulated by the very own game for years is that we have two manners os Aether.

Corporeal and Incorporeal. The Souls, being Incorporeal and a being composed only of Incorporeal (Case in question) ARE GHOSTS. The very own Unending Codex proves the person you are making fun of is right, the Endless are simple ghosts of passing people, and as much as you may claim it was a horrible action, it was not. They act accordingly with their memories, they are capable of storing new memories as Endless, but those do not develop them beyond what they are. Those 'dreams, hopes, and aspirations' are unresolved matters. To which, even the Unending Codex, states that Incorporeal beings cling to memory and emotions, having unresolved matters means they can turn into actual harmful beings (Hello, Deadwalk).

By shutting down this place, we are putting many ghosts to rest, it is a moral act to do. We also resolve matters of those unable to move on so they find comfort and feel capable of passing on and resting as we carry their legacy.

[AlysCamoa]

The lore entry about souls, as stipulated by the very own game for years is that we have two manners os Aether.

Corporeal and Incorporeal. The Souls, being Incorporeal and a being composed only of Incorporeal (Case in question) ARE GHOSTS. The very own Unending Codex proves the person you are making fun of is right, the Endless are simple ghosts of passing people, and as much as you may claim it was a horrible action, it was not. They act accordingly with their memories, they are capable of storing new memories as Endless, but those do not develop them beyond what they are. Those 'dreams, hopes, and aspirations' are unresolved matters. To which, even the Unending Codex, states that Incorporeal beings cling to memory and emotions, having unresolved matters means they can turn into actual harmful beings (Hello, Deadwalk).

By shutting down this place, we are putting many ghosts to rest, it is a moral act to do. We also resolve matters of those unable to move on so they find comfort and feel capable of passing on and resting as we carry their legacy.

Oh good, somebody who read the entry. I'd like to know where you're getting the idea that the memories formed by the Endless do not develop them. In fact, we're demonstrated quite the opposite, several times, as the dozen or so characters we interact with there change merely by meeting us. The most glaring counter-point to your claim would be Cahciua, no? But I'm willing to entertain the idea this might be true—if you can cite the part of the story where the Endless do not develop based on new experiences.

[OMGJesuis66]

Oh good, somebody who read the entry. I'd like to know where you're getting the idea that the memories formed by the Endless do not develop them. In fact, we're demonstrated quite the opposite, several times, as the dozen or so characters we interact with there change merely by meeting us. The most glaring counter-point to your claim would be Cahciua, no? But I'm willing to entertain the idea this might be true—if you can cite the part of the story where the Endless do not develop based on new experiences.

Actually, the counter-point to my argument is Sphene. Not Cahciua.
But Sphene is an anomaly in comparison, as to genuinely be able to enact under these new memories (recent ones), she had to erase past memories to get rid of her inhibition to perform her primary directive.
Any new memory an Endless receives is stored inside themselves, compiled, and still performed as the person would based on the data received out of them. That is what we say, not the other way around, those people do not develop as living ones.
We did not have enough exposition on Cahciua to argue she changed, for all principles, she didn't. As Erenville even argued in his hurtful rant how she was deciding things for everyone.
That was already a trait of her personality that complied with the memories, and since we are talking with Ghosts, it is important to keep in mind they live in the past and only by what they know.
And after new experiences quieted past grievances or any left out unfinished business, they feel at peace and capable of departing.

[AlysCamoa]

Actually, the counter-point to my argument is Sphene. Not Cahciua.
But Sphene is an anomaly in comparison, as to genuinely be able to enact under these new memories (recent ones), she had to erase past memories to get rid of her inhibition to perform her primary directive.
Any new memory an Endless receives is stored inside themselves, compiled, and still performed as the person would based on the data received out of them. That is what we say, not the other way around, those people do not develop as living ones.
We did not have enough exposition on Cahciua to argue she changed, for all principles, she didn't. As Erenville even argued in his hurtful rant how she was deciding things for everyone.
That was already a trait of her personality that complied with the memories, and since we are talking with Ghosts, it is important to keep in mind they live in the past and only by what they know.
And after new experiences quieted past grievances or any left out unfinished business, they feel at peace and capable of departing.

Except Sphene isn't an Endless. She's an amalgamation artificially made by Preservation. This was stated quite explicitly. She is not the memories extracted from a soul and stored for later use.
Anyway, if your litmus test for 'change' is 'acting like a completely different person', then by that metric Wuk Lamat never changes. Should I then consider Wuk Lamat to not be alive, given that Ultima Thule has established a soul is not necessary for life?

[OMGJesuis66]

Except Sphene isn't an Endless. She's an amalgamation artificially made by Preservation. This was stated quite explicitly. She is not the memories extracted from a soul and stored for later use.
Anyway, if your litmus test for 'change' is 'acting like a completely different person', then by that metric Wuk Lamat never changes. Should I then consider Wuk Lamat to not be alive, given that Ultima Thule has established a soul is not necessary for life?

Sphene is an Endless. They extracted her memories and soul to be able to make such an amalgamation.
That is explicitly spoken and even has NPC dialogue in her own erased memories talking about how they were capable of preserving her Soul.
Your second rhetoric is not a point of conversation, it would lead us to a very silly tangent about Wuk Lamat that I have no interest in jumping on. But to properly explain what I meant, is that newfound memories for those beings do not have an impact on themselves. They are data, they get new data, store it, and respond accordingly to present and past data, much like an AI.
They aren't doing actual introspection or personal growth as a living being, they are just adapting to their surroundings.

[Eyrilona]

They are data, they get new data, store it, and respond accordingly to present and past data, much like an AI. They aren't doing actual introspection or personal growth as a living being, they are just adapting to their surroundings.

Much like an AI you say? Defined so broadly, that also sounds like how all life on Earth goes about things, us humans included. And how can you say they are not doing introspection when they clearly integrate new experiences with their existing body of experience? Moreover, they literally reflect on the nature of their own existence! Even if the story only lets them do it to have them reassure us they are fine with being turned off, that sure sounds like introspection to me.

[Galvuu]

Much like an AI you say? Defined so broadly, that also sounds like how all life on Earth goes about things, us humans included. And how can you say they are not doing introspection when they clearly integrate new experiences with their existing body of experience? Moreover, they literally reflect on the nature of their own existence! Even if the story only lets them do it to have them reassure us they are fine with being turned off, that sure sounds like introspection to me.

I mean, as far as modern science knows, our consciousness seems to be an emergent phenomena that primarily arises from the pattern recognition our brains do... while I, personally, feel we're centuries away from creating any real artificial consciousness, regarding what happens in fiction, the parallel can certainly be drawn with a lot of merit.

[OMGJesuis66]

I explained it in the same sentence. Data being compiled.

[Turtledeluxe]

Much like an AI you say? Defined so broadly, that also sounds like how all life on Earth goes about things, us humans included. And how can you say they are not doing introspection when they clearly integrate new experiences with their existing body of experience? Moreover, they literally reflect on the nature of their own existence! Even if the story only lets them do it to have them reassure us they are fine with being turned off, that sure sounds like introspection to me.

That's cool, it doesn't matter if they are alive or not. That's not how questionable ethics are determined. Anything else you need or just trolling at this point and trying to compare real human existence to a fictional story with rules established by humans?

We also didn't turn off the Sphene in the main story or the Otis in the main story. We turned off a Sphene created in the trial, per the script, who concedes that her existence is dependent on the Meso Terminal. Otis obviously dies in combat. Can't remember who was talking about that but it's irrelevant.

[AlysCamoa]

Sphene is an Endless. They extracted her memories and soul to be able to make such an amalgamation.
That is explicitly spoken and even has NPC dialogue in her own erased memories talking about how they were capable of preserving her Soul.
Your second rhetoric is not a point of conversation, it would lead us to a very silly tangent about Wuk Lamat that I have no interest in jumping on. But to properly explain what I meant, is that newfound memories for those beings do not have an impact on themselves. They are data, they get new data, store it, and respond accordingly to present and past data, much like an AI.
They aren't doing actual introspection or personal growth as a living being, they are just adapting to their surroundings.

I get new data that you claim the Endless don't develop based off of new data, and am now forced to evaluate it: do I accept this new data as true, or false? I weigh the evidence in favor of your claim: you have furnished none, so there is none. I now reject your data as false. I continue on in the manner I did prior. Under your framework, I have undergone no change, and therefore am merely a LLM incapable of new experience, only base replication of prior experience. This further weights my decision to reject your claim, as following your logic to its conclusion proves how illogical it is. So, I reject your claim again; now I'm an AI twice over. Neat, isn't it?

Again, I'll ask you to cite your claim that Sphene fits under the Endless framework. Here, I'll demonstrate what that means: in quest #91, 'Those Who Live Forever', Cahciua states that the Sphene we meet is an ideal brought to life by Preservation, utilizing the memories of Sphene's love for her people. Wuk then mentions an original Sphene, and Cahciua calls the current Sphene created. Despite Cahciua being previously established by the story to be an unreliable source of information, this claim can be evaluated against other statements: Otis mentions in quest #81, 'Memories of a Knight', that the Queen's soul was stored for a considerable amount of time before extraction technology was working, and Sphene herself treats her living memories as an 'other'. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to draw the conclusion that Sphene- as we know her- is a facsimile purpose-made by Preservation to provide the personality and face for their system. Sphene is not like the other Endless, much like the Otis we meet in Living Memory is not like the other Endless; so to call them Endless confuses the definition when discussing the monolithic group of Endless her were made by extracting the original memories in whole from the soul, and placing those original memories on new aether. Whether Living Memory Otis and Sphene are alive is a topic best discusses separately from whether the Endless are alive, because the context of their existence is different.