Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[AddictedToWitches]

I don't want to veer into a "death of the author" tirade, but this type of argument from scripture has nothing to do with what most people are discussing.
Patch 7.1 could come out and tell me that all the beast tribes aren't really alive/conscious and, by necessity of the plot, killing them all off would be ok, and I'd still question this, especially in the face of what's been portrayed before. Even if that's what the writer thinks is true and intended to be transmitted, it's not what their work actually portrays in practice when viewed by most people (I think the author didn't put thought into anything and just made a cheap copy of Amaurot with AI instead of Ancients, honestly).
I'm not even definitely on the camp that the Endless are alive- I don't know what qualifies as "being alive" or what consciousness is, in XIV or irl- but that's why it's a subject of discussion. It honestly feels unnatural that the scions, scholars and brilliant people who are known to be curious, don't spend any time considering this.
It's like we ran into some alien machine that seems sapient/creative/conscious/self-aware and we don't wonder if it's alive or not, if it's like us or not.
For the purpose of the plot, it doesn't matter because the Source was under an existential threat and they had to be destroyed, but that doesn't immediately imply that they were alive or not, or what does it means to be alive. The game glosses this over with a lot of levity.
This rings hollow especially after Shadowbringers, where this is explored in detail with the duality of the Ancients compared to the Sundered souls, and a bit more in EW with the phantasms in the Ultima Thule, Omega and Alpha- which is what many people are drawing comparisons to.

So your argument is despite it making sense in the way it was written. . . you don't like it and think it's still unethical.
I mean, you can dislike the writing sure but this is next level cope.

[Galvuu]

So your argument is despite it making sense in the way it was written. . . you don't like it and think it's still unethical.
I mean, you can dislike the writing sure but this is next level cope.

I'll use very small words in a simple analogy so you understand.
You write a picture book. In chapter one, you show all these cute farm animals living with farmer Joe, and explain they have feelings and all life is precious. Farmer Joe makes nice pens and stables for all the animals and, in doing so, he comes to understand they have feelings and their lives are precious and they're happy together.
In chapter seven, there's a flood that threatens the farm. So he needs to build a dam, but realizes that the waters are inhabited by a bunch of fish and some beavers. He has no choice but to build the dam or his farm will be destroyed. Sure. But the chapter then goes "they're just fish and beavers anyway, their existence has no worth and is totally different from the animals from chapter 1, so it's totally fine to destroy them".
See the problem? I'm not saying if the fish are equatable to the animals or Joe or not- I don't pretend to have this answer. But it's dissonant to state "fish/beavers = worthless" and "farm animals = precious".
Yes, you need to build the dam to save yourself, but is there an additional element of tragedy here? That's what people are discussing, and noticing how incongruent is with the past work presented.

I don't think it's unethical to destroy the Endless to save the Source either. Did you read where I said "the WoL and Scions were justified in destroying the Endless to protect the Source"?
But ty for illustrating my point, it's all just "next level cope" and whatnot.

[AddictedToWitches]

Snip[/I]"?
But ty for illustrating my point, it's all just "next level cope" and whatnot.

Bo the endless are literally ghosts, they are not living creatures, this is such a stupid analogy to make my man.
Read the MSQ dude, READ. You are told this multiple times. These are facsimiles of people, memories, ghosts. They are long dead, and Sphene's living memory was barely sustainable. Sphene was killing people in order to preserve what were essentially advanced AI chatbots based on dead people. Everyone hammers home multiple times that it's fucked up that they are continuing to live like this, and not even all of the endless either, just a few at a time and the algorithm specifically plans out meetings of people who knew each other. It's a hollow existence. You are ushering on the dead. You are letting go. That's the point. The lights go out in living memory because you need to learn to let go. You need to teach Sphene to let go. This is all foreshadowed in the Yok Huy segment, where it's hammered in that even when people are long dead, they live on through the memories of those close to them. As long as they aren't forgotten, they will never truly die. So keeping them in a hollow endless dream is madness.
And before you start with me again, need I remind you that this almost PERFECTLY mirrors Emet and the Ascians as well. We defied the Ascians because we are protecting all of our people, despite knowing the Ascians' plans to revive their people. We defy Sphene because we are protecting our people, the only difference is instead of Sphene actively reviving her people, she's parading around hollow memories of them, not even the real living beings.
Earlier people mentioned "Well why not genocide the Omicrons?" The Omicrons are a dead race, what few exist in Ultima Thule are merely just existing, and posing no threat to basically anyone.
Also very very epic argument on your part belittling my intelligence, that certainly helped your argument and didn't entirely destroy any remaining respect I might have had for you.

[AlysCamoa]

Bo the endless are literally ghosts, they are not living creatures, this is such a stupid analogy to make my man.
Read the MSQ dude, READ. You are told this multiple times. These are facsimiles of people, memories, ghosts. They are long dead, and Sphene's living memory was barely sustainable. Sphene was killing people in order to preserve what were essentially advanced AI chatbots based on dead people. Everyone hammers home multiple times that it's fucked up that they are continuing to live like this, and not even all of the endless either, just a few at a time and the algorithm specifically plans out meetings of people who knew each other. It's a hollow existence. You are ushering on the dead. You are letting go. That's the point. The lights go out in living memory because you need to learn to let go. You need to teach Sphene to let go. This is all foreshadowed in the Yok Huy segment, where it's hammered in that even when people are long dead, they live on through the memories of those close to them. As long as they aren't forgotten, they will never truly die. So keeping them in a hollow endless dream is madness.
And before you start with me again, need I remind you that this almost PERFECTLY mirrors Emet and the Ascians as well. We defied the Ascians because we are protecting all of our people, despite knowing the Ascians' plans to revive their people. We defy Sphene because we are protecting our people, the only difference is instead of Sphene actively reviving her people, she's parading around hollow memories of them, not even the real living beings.
Earlier people mentioned "Well why not genocide the Omicrons?" The Omicrons are a dead race, what few exist in Ultima Thule are merely just existing, and posing no threat to basically anyone.
Also very very epic argument on your part belittling my intelligence, that certainly helped your argument and didn't entirely destroy any remaining respect I might have had for you.

It’s funny that you call other people speed-readers while ignoring the game’s lore yourself. Classic.
Suggestion for you: go read the Unending Codex entry on souls that got added this very patch.
Also, consider whether Cahciua telling us something- immediately after requesting we do a horrific action that would never otherwise be considered- means her words are objective truth in-universe, or her own biased outlook.

Unrelated to you, I had a real good laugh reading a reply that says Endless don’t respond to stimuli. That’s a good one, gamers. Almost as good as ‘they’re copies’ or ‘they’re chatGPT’.

[OMGJesuis66]

It’s funny that you call other people speed-readers while ignoring the game’s lore yourself. Classic.
Suggestion for you: go read the Unending Codex entry on souls that got added this very patch.
Also, consider whether Cahciua telling us something- immediately after requesting we do a horrific action that would never otherwise be considered- means her words are objective truth in-universe, or her own biased outlook.

Unrelated to you, I had a real good laugh reading a reply that says Endless don’t respond to stimuli. That’s a good one, gamers. Almost as good as ‘they’re copies’ or ‘they’re chatGPT’.

The lore entry about souls, as stipulated by the very own game for years is that we have two manners os Aether.

Corporeal and Incorporeal. The Souls, being Incorporeal and a being composed only of Incorporeal (Case in question) ARE GHOSTS. The very own Unending Codex proves the person you are making fun of is right, the Endless are simple ghosts of passing people, and as much as you may claim it was a horrible action, it was not. They act accordingly with their memories, they are capable of storing new memories as Endless, but those do not develop them beyond what they are. Those 'dreams, hopes, and aspirations' are unresolved matters. To which, even the Unending Codex, states that Incorporeal beings cling to memory and emotions, having unresolved matters means they can turn into actual harmful beings (Hello, Deadwalk).

By shutting down this place, we are putting many ghosts to rest, it is a moral act to do. We also resolve matters of those unable to move on so they find comfort and feel capable of passing on and resting as we carry their legacy.

[AlysCamoa]

The lore entry about souls, as stipulated by the very own game for years is that we have two manners os Aether.

Corporeal and Incorporeal. The Souls, being Incorporeal and a being composed only of Incorporeal (Case in question) ARE GHOSTS. The very own Unending Codex proves the person you are making fun of is right, the Endless are simple ghosts of passing people, and as much as you may claim it was a horrible action, it was not. They act accordingly with their memories, they are capable of storing new memories as Endless, but those do not develop them beyond what they are. Those 'dreams, hopes, and aspirations' are unresolved matters. To which, even the Unending Codex, states that Incorporeal beings cling to memory and emotions, having unresolved matters means they can turn into actual harmful beings (Hello, Deadwalk).

By shutting down this place, we are putting many ghosts to rest, it is a moral act to do. We also resolve matters of those unable to move on so they find comfort and feel capable of passing on and resting as we carry their legacy.

Oh good, somebody who read the entry. I'd like to know where you're getting the idea that the memories formed by the Endless do not develop them. In fact, we're demonstrated quite the opposite, several times, as the dozen or so characters we interact with there change merely by meeting us. The most glaring counter-point to your claim would be Cahciua, no? But I'm willing to entertain the idea this might be true—if you can cite the part of the story where the Endless do not develop based on new experiences.

[OMGJesuis66]

Oh good, somebody who read the entry. I'd like to know where you're getting the idea that the memories formed by the Endless do not develop them. In fact, we're demonstrated quite the opposite, several times, as the dozen or so characters we interact with there change merely by meeting us. The most glaring counter-point to your claim would be Cahciua, no? But I'm willing to entertain the idea this might be true—if you can cite the part of the story where the Endless do not develop based on new experiences.

Actually, the counter-point to my argument is Sphene. Not Cahciua.
But Sphene is an anomaly in comparison, as to genuinely be able to enact under these new memories (recent ones), she had to erase past memories to get rid of her inhibition to perform her primary directive.
Any new memory an Endless receives is stored inside themselves, compiled, and still performed as the person would based on the data received out of them. That is what we say, not the other way around, those people do not develop as living ones.
We did not have enough exposition on Cahciua to argue she changed, for all principles, she didn't. As Erenville even argued in his hurtful rant how she was deciding things for everyone.
That was already a trait of her personality that complied with the memories, and since we are talking with Ghosts, it is important to keep in mind they live in the past and only by what they know.
And after new experiences quieted past grievances or any left out unfinished business, they feel at peace and capable of departing.