Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Magikazam]

It is interesting to me that everyone who speaks up against the actions taken in Living Memory, cannot really process that the Endless are not living beings.

The issue there being that we've seen similar being in ultima thule that are considered ''living beings''. I wouldn't consider it weird if it wasen't for the fact that AI and the inhabitant of UT are considered ''living'' in lore.

[TheMightyMollusk]

The issue there being that we've seen similar being in ultima thule that are considered ''living beings''. I wouldn't consider it weird if it wasen't for the fact that AI and the inhabitant of UT are considered ''living'' in lore.

The people in Ultima Thule are entirely physical beings, who are shown able to grow and change with outside stimuli, even just during the MSQ spent there. The people in Living Memory are projections of stored memories from a computer, which also edits their memories to keep them "happy", or can freely switch them off to conserve power. They're about as alive as a boss's summoned adds.

[Bunyon]

The people in Ultima Thule are entirely physical beings, who are shown able to grow and change with outside stimuli, even just during the MSQ spent there. The people in Living Memory are projections of stored memories from a computer, which also edits their memories to keep them "happy", or can freely switch them off to conserve power. They're about as alive as a boss's summoned adds.

For an expansion where memory is such a big theme, it's absolutely INSANE to me how little people even consider the topic. "Projections of stored memories"? They're not video clips playing over and over, they're sentient, they can feel, they can listen, think create new memories.

"BRO THEY'RE JUST MEMORIES"
Do you even consider what your memories are? They're one of the biggest parts of what make you YOU. They're all your experiences, they're everyone you know, they're everything you've learned. The last zone made be go absolutely insane at how quickly sentient beings perfectly simulated from the memories original people are not even worthy of being considered to be in any way shape or form preserved. IMMEDIATELY you are told that bunny mom wants to die so it's ok.

I revisited the MSQ of the last area to try and figure out if I was missing something, but as far as I can tell this is what I gathered:
- The only way to get to Sphene is by entering the terminal during the last moments, when defenses are down.
- Shutting down the endless is only being done because Sphene would maybe lose motivation
- Bunny mom even says they don't have to shut them down now, but she REALLY REALLY WANTS TO DIE HOLY SHIT ERENVILLE CAN'T YOU BE HAPPY FOR HER THAT SHE WANTS TO DIE, WHAT A WHINER

And, please correct me if I'm wrong, Sphene never even for one line acknowledges at any point that you shut down the endless, meaning that you could've very well just have saved that for patch content and actually explored these themes and characters in depth (even if the conclusion was the same, and we had to shut it down).

It felt RUSHED, cool interesting themes were completely under-explored, and it left a really sour taste for this expansion for me.

[Magikazam]

The people in Ultima Thule are entirely physical beings

Ea are stated to be non-corporeal beings.

The people in Living Memory are projections of stored memories from a computer

And the Omnicron are a 100% robotic lifeform that has a computer serving as a brain.

They're about as alive as a boss's summoned adds.

Again, you can't have it both way, If Endless aren't alive, Omnicron aren't alive. Both are computer. Again, I agree by real world logic that the Endless aren't alive, but it not my fault if Computer are living being in lore.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Ea are stated to be non-corporeal beings.

The Ea are composed of pure aether, while still being affected by some physical stimuli (they can interact with objects, or be attacked with entirely mundane weapons, as shown with the rogue Ea that act as enemy mobs around the settlement). They're like elemental sprites with sentience.

And the Omnicron are a 100% robotic lifeform that has a computer serving as a brain.

Again, you can't have it both way, If Endless aren't alive, Omnicron aren't alive. Both are computer. Again, I agree by real world logic that the Endless aren't alive, but it not my fault if Coomputer are living being in lore.

The Omicrons were living beings who voluntarily uploaded their collective consciousness into machines. Then they got stuck in a rut of conquest and destruction until they were destroyed. They don't re-develop sentience until they're influenced by dynamis. So I would argue that they weren't really alive until the Endsinger meddled with them.

Which also brings up another point; the beings in Ultima Thule can exist independently of the Endsinger, while the projections in Living Memory fade out when their leynodes are shut down. A handful linger on for unfinished business, but they too disappear as soon as it's completed. They're automata.

[Magikazam]

So I would argue that they weren't really alive until the Endsinger meddled with them.

So you would consider Omega as non-alive, since he was separated from the other Omnicron b4 Endsinger meddled with them? He does have desires as shown at the end of his raids and in the alternate future we prevented in SHB.

[TheMightyMollusk]

So you would consider Omega as non-alive, since he was separated from the other Omnicron b4 Endsinger meddled with them? He does have desires as shown at the end of his raids and in the alternate future we prevented in SHB.

We're also shown via Alpha that a being can gain desires and even a soul, given time and a chance to change. Alpha and Omega aren't bound to an overriding mind preventing them from doing so, like the Endless.

[Magikazam]

We're also shown via Alpha that a being can gain desires and even a soul, given time and a chance to change. Alpha and Omega aren't bound to an overriding mind preventing them from doing so, like the Endless.

But some Endless are shown to have Desire too, even desire to die/turn the thing off and rebels, so clearly being bound don't change that. We can't tell if it the same case for the souls too.

[Galvuu]

The Ea are composed of pure aether, while still being affected by some physical stimuli (they can interact with objects, or be attacked with entirely mundane weapons, as shown with the rogue Ea that act as enemy mobs around the settlement). They're like elemental sprites with sentience.

Isn't all matter in Etheirys made of aether? I don't think this is a meaningful criteria.
You go over this in your later posts, but gaining sapience/self-awareness/a soul is something that can just happen at any point in XIV.

I definitely feel like there are a lot of implications to explore with the Endless and the nature of consciousness and life in XIV, but it's as I said in another thread- we're not given enough information, and both the story and characters basically don't explore this at all.
I think this topic is very interesting and worthy of thought, but Dawntrail brushes it aside in a shallow, infantile way.
The writers neither thought of this nor care, so all this nuance, thought experiments and philosophizing is ultimately consigned to the forums. Old XIV might explore this, but I feel that post-EW XIV just brushes these topics aside... the story basically doesn't even pose any of these questions though they're heavily implied with what's presented to us.

snip.

I don't want to veer into a "death of the author" tirade, but this type of argument from scripture has nothing to do with what most people are discussing.
Patch 7.1 could come out and tell me that all the beast tribes aren't really alive/conscious and, by necessity of the plot, killing them all off would be ok, and I'd still question this, especially in the face of what's been portrayed before. Even if that's what the writer thinks is true and intended to be transmitted, it's not what their work actually portrays in practice when viewed by most people (I think the author didn't put thought into anything and just made a cheap copy of Amaurot with AI instead of Ancients, honestly).
I'm not even definitely on the camp that the Endless are alive- I don't know what qualifies as "being alive" or what consciousness is, in XIV or irl- but that's why it's a subject of discussion. It honestly feels unnatural that the scions, scholars and brilliant people who are known to be curious, don't spend any time considering this.
It's like we ran into some alien machine that seems sapient/creative/conscious/self-aware and we don't wonder if it's alive or not, if it's like us or not.
For the purpose of the plot, it doesn't matter because the Source was under an existential threat and they had to be destroyed, but that doesn't immediately imply that they were alive or not, or what does it means to be alive. The game glosses this over with a lot of levity.
This rings hollow especially after Shadowbringers, where this is explored in detail with the duality of the Ancients compared to the Sundered souls, and a bit more in EW with the phantasms in the Ultima Thule, Omega and Alpha- which is what many people are drawing comparisons to.

[AddictedToWitches]

I don't want to veer into a "death of the author" tirade, but this type of argument from scripture has nothing to do with what most people are discussing.
Patch 7.1 could come out and tell me that all the beast tribes aren't really alive/conscious and, by necessity of the plot, killing them all off would be ok, and I'd still question this, especially in the face of what's been portrayed before. Even if that's what the writer thinks is true and intended to be transmitted, it's not what their work actually portrays in practice when viewed by most people (I think the author didn't put thought into anything and just made a cheap copy of Amaurot with AI instead of Ancients, honestly).
I'm not even definitely on the camp that the Endless are alive- I don't know what qualifies as "being alive" or what consciousness is, in XIV or irl- but that's why it's a subject of discussion. It honestly feels unnatural that the scions, scholars and brilliant people who are known to be curious, don't spend any time considering this.
It's like we ran into some alien machine that seems sapient/creative/conscious/self-aware and we don't wonder if it's alive or not, if it's like us or not.
For the purpose of the plot, it doesn't matter because the Source was under an existential threat and they had to be destroyed, but that doesn't immediately imply that they were alive or not, or what does it means to be alive. The game glosses this over with a lot of levity.
This rings hollow especially after Shadowbringers, where this is explored in detail with the duality of the Ancients compared to the Sundered souls, and a bit more in EW with the phantasms in the Ultima Thule, Omega and Alpha- which is what many people are drawing comparisons to.

So your argument is despite it making sense in the way it was written. . . you don't like it and think it's still unethical.
I mean, you can dislike the writing sure but this is next level cope.