Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Kiarin]

I see many people responding with an an argument "they are only projections of already dead people, so shutting them off is not morally evil".

I agree to that and don't argue. As I wrote, most likely Endless are just glorified chatbots, so shutting them off is objectively not more evil than deleting a game from your PC. Most likely, as we cannot be 100% about their nature, since many things about aether and souls are vague in ff14.

However that misses the main point of my argument: evil or not, we simply don't have neither authority nor legitimacy nor right to do as we please in Sphene's kingdom. Even if existence of Endless is in the end harmful, as long as Sphene doesn't use outside souls for her system, we have no right to intervene. What we have is the right to stop her from threatening souls outside, by force if needed. Erasing Endless within their bubble, however, is an internal affair, a decision that must be done by local legitimate authority, not by us, a hostile outside force.
And if we say that we allowed ourselves do to as we please in Sphene's realm because of situation in extremis, that makes us somewhat of a war criminals, since we were targeting civilians which has no direct effect on stopping Sphene here and now.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I see many people responding with an an argument "they are only projections of already dead people, so shutting them off is not morally evil".

I agree to that and don't argue. As I wrote, most likely Endless are just glorified chatbots, so shutting them off is objectively not more evil than deleting a game from your PC. Most likely, as we cannot be 100% about their nature, since many things about aether and souls are vague in ff14.

However that misses the main point of my argument: evil or not, we simply don't have neither authority nor legitimacy nor right to do as we please in Sphene's kingdom. Even if existence of Endless is in the end harmful, as long as Sphene doesn't use outside souls for her system, we have no right to intervene. What we have is the right to stop her from threatening souls outside, by force if needed. Erasing Endless within their bubble, however, is an internal affair, a decision that must be done by local legitimate authority, not by us, a hostile outside force.
And if we say that we allowed ourselves do to as we please in Sphene's realm because of situation in extremis, that makes us somewhat of a war criminals, since we were targeting civilians which has no direct effect on stopping Sphene here and now.

Sphene was in the process of attempting to dimensionally fuse the shards (where the endless memory was with the source), she then would kill people on the source for their souls to power living memory.

She was actively attempting to kill everyone on the source to preserve the living memories (digital data and projections) of her soulless dead citizens.

Her entire purpose, as modified by the organization (probably ironically named Preservation) who preserved her memories, is to preserve the endless.

That's why we couldn't convince her otherwise. She was programmed to do so.

[Randomer169]

We had no legitimacy to break in and shut it down. We had no right to interfere in Doma or Ala Mhigo. The WoL is a wandering vigilante, and sometimes that's what the world needs. A lot of horrific things were done with authority and legitimacy. Paperwork shouldn't be enough to justify allowing an atrocity to continue.

[SDaemon]

We had no legitimacy to break in and shut it down. We had no right to interfere in Doma or Ala Mhigo. The WoL is a wandering vigilante, and sometimes that's what the world needs. A lot of horrific things were done with authority and legitimacy. Paperwork shouldn't be enough to justify allowing an atrocity to continue.

You can't really gloss over the fact that Sphene is the aggressor in the situation and that defending yourself from an entity that seeks to wipe out all life in your world gives you ample reason to break in and stop them. Especially when said aggressor refuses any attempts at diplomacy.

[MikkoAkure]

However that misses the main point of my argument: evil or not, we simply don't have neither authority nor legitimacy nor right to do as we please in Sphene's kingdom. Even if existence of Endless is in the end harmful, as long as Sphene doesn't use outside souls for her system, we have no right to intervene. What we have is the right to stop her from threatening souls outside, by force if needed. Erasing Endless within their bubble, however, is an internal affair, a decision that must be done by local legitimate authority, not by us, a hostile outside force.
And if we say that we allowed ourselves do to as we please in Sphene's realm because of situation in extremis, that makes us somewhat of a war criminals, since we were targeting civilians which has no direct effect on stopping Sphene here and now.

And Sphene didn't have the authority to transplant her country into a different plane of existence, steal the land of a different country and absorb the population into hers while eliminating most of their culture, and then making a surprise war on the nation she stole from and killing its citizens in order to power her dead. Alexandria is the hostile force here, they killed Tuliyollal's civilians in a targeted attack with no warning. The Endless aren't a culture, they're not a society, and they're not citizens. They're the projections of people who have already died and were being used as a reason to plunder all of reality of souls that aren't Alexandrian. The country of Alexandria STILL EXISTS with LIVING PEOPLE, but all everyone seems to care about is the country's overcomplicated graveyard and how it made them sad.

Any argument that "this is a them issue" is rendered moot when they are the ones who came here and brought others into their problems. They're the outsiders from a different reflection. The idea that we needed to go through proper local laws and regulations and ambassadorial bureaucracy in order to shut off the machine powering dead people from a hostile nation that is attempting to take our souls is insane.

The Endless don't even care. One NPC you can talk to is fully aware of Sphene's plan but is apathetic as to whether or not it succeeds. We go in and shut down terminals very slowly one-by-one and no one does anything or raises a voice in protest. You'd think if they had a problem, there would be more Endless left over after the terminals shut off if they had a strong enough connection, but the only ones left just wanted to make sure that books are returned to a library or had other unfinished business.

[Astronis]

And Sphene didn't have the authority to transplant her country into a different plane of existence, steal the land of a different country and absorb the population into hers while eliminating most of their culture, and then making a surprise war on the nation she stole from and killing its citizens in order to power her dead. Alexandria is the hostile force here, they killed Tuliyollal's civilians in a targeted attack with no warning. The Endless aren't a culture, they're not a society, and they're not citizens. They're the projections of people who have already died and were being used as a reason to plunder all of reality of souls that aren't Alexandrian. The country of Alexandria STILL EXISTS with LIVING PEOPLE, but all everyone seems to care about is the country's overcomplicated graveyard and how it made them sad.

Indeed, there are lots of living Alexandrians, some with aether-imbalance disorders that aetheroligists on the Source are well-equipped to deal with. Now that Alexandria isn't waging a war to power their very pleasant and friendly soul-eating zombie collection, we can get to tending to the actually alive Alexandrians!

[LuciferMournstar]

Indeed, there are lots of living Alexandrians, some with aether-imbalance disorders that aetheroligists on the Source are well-equipped to deal with. Now that Alexandria isn't waging a war to power their very pleasant and friendly soul-eating zombie collection, we can get to tending to the actually alive Alexandrians!

Yeah, Alexandria still exist in Heritage Found and Solution 9, but they are doomed for good now. We are going to wipe them out too. Their regulators no longer will have souls supplied to them, so everything in the "bubble" is doomed. Hunters in the bubble can no longer use souls, they will die trying to stop the monsters in that Lighting destroyed world. Which means eventually all of Heritage Found, Solution 9, and Living Memory will be overrun and uninhabitable. Also, we're going to put a stop to the use of Beast Souls. We're wiping out their entire culture, way of life, and any hope of continuing. They have one recourse : Abandon their culture, their home, and move to the source. Eletrope won't have use in the source without the abundance of Lightning Eather, so that'll be forgotten too.

There is no "happy ending" to this story. Alexandria is dying, and in about 100 years or so, will fade into obscurity and distant memory. If it takes even that long.

[Loggos]

Hunters in the bubble can no longer use souls, they will die trying to stop the monsters in that Lighting destroyed world.

...but that bubble is literally part of our world now. And the time has been synced at this point, too. We can literally get in and out of the bubble (and so can the citizens of S9/HF).

There is no reason why we cannot trade with them, help them, equip them with other tools or why they can't leave the bubble temporarily and hunt normal game.

Also, the idea that human hunters are the only means by which they can hunt is flawed imo. They literally have robots and space ships and now that Zoraal Ja is gone they have no further purpose. Why would an advanced civilisation with a huge cyber military force that exceeds anything Tural has to offer (we need a goddamn dragon to take them down) not be able to employ these things as tools to hunt or keep normal monsters at bay within the bubble?
Hop on one of those flying bikes and hunt beasts from above. Hell, put a robot on those flying bikes and let them do the hunting for you.

They can exist just fine without extra souls just like everybody else on Eitherys. They do not need extra souls to live and breathe, it's an insurance against very specific causes of death (not even natural causes) that no other culture has and yet every other culture on this planet is doing fine.
And they can easily circumvent these cases of unnatural death with other technical solutions. They can just not face tank a beast's tank buster anymore as a pugilist and get away unscathed.

[LuciferMournstar]

...but that bubble is literally part of our world now. And the time has been synced at this point, too. We can literally get in and out of the bubble (and so can the citizens of S9/HF).

There is no reason why we cannot trade with them, help them, equip them with other tools or why they can't leave the bubble temporarily and hunt normal game.

Also, the idea that human hunters are the only means by which they can hunt is flawed imo. They literally have robots and space ships and now that Zoraal Ja is gone they have no further purpose. Why would an advanced civilisation with a huge cyber military force that exceeds anything Tural has to offer (we need a goddamn dragon to take them down) not be able to employ these things as tools to hunt or keep normal monsters at bay within the bubble?
Hop on one of those flying bikes and hunt beasts from above. Hell, put a robot on those flying bikes and let them do the hunting for you.

They can exist just fine without extra souls just like everybody else on Eitherys. They do not need extra souls to live and breathe, it's an insurance against very specific causes of death (not even natural causes) that no other culture has and yet every other culture on this planet is doing fine.
And they can easily circumvent these cases of unnatural death with other technical solutions. They can just not face tank a beast's tank buster anymore as a pugilist and get away unscathed.

"They have no further purpose". Did you think Zoraal Ja was just having them standing around, doing nothing for 30 years till he could merge with the Source? Obviously not. They were were used, and they weren't enough, hence the Hunters.

[Loggos]

"They have no further purpose". Did you think Zoraal Ja was just having them standing around, doing nothing for 30 years till he could merge with the Source? Obviously not. They were were used, and they weren't enough, hence the Hunters.

You misunderstood me.

His military has no further purpose now that he is gone. We have obviously seen some robots patroling Heritage Found but Alexandria has a full cyber space force. Literal ships flying in the sky that are strong enough to conquer Tural. If you have that much power, again power to conquer not just a continent but the entire world (which was his goal), you just cannot tell me that for some reason, now that he is gone, that power cannot be redirected to fight normal monsters in your local area.

His military cannot simultaneously have enough robots/figters/force to conquer the world but not enough to deal with monsters.

Also, as I said above, there are more options for Alexandrians now. They are part of Tural at this point. We can forge alliances, establish trade etc. Guraal Ja 2.0 is their ruler and has direct ties to Wuk, who is hellbent on peace and harmony. There is just no implication that the Alexandrians are done for.