Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Lady_Silvermoon]

*snip*

There are two arguments made in Living Memory and when people take issue with the first, people bring up the second while never addressing the first.

1. The Endless are unnatural, inferior beings and therefore it's fine to eradicate them.
2. Sphene will be forced by her programming to destroy all life in the universe to maintain the Endless.

Here's the thing, if someone suggested we kill every single Garlean so Varis would have no reason to conquer the Source, not only would we refuse to do it, we'd think that person was a monster. However, with the Endless, the characters pout a little, grumble about it being hard, but they still wipe out an entire people between boat rides and ice cream and the reason for that is because they are deemed an inferior form of life.

"I do not consider you truly alive, ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you."

And every argument anyone might try to make as to why the Endless do not meet the standards of personhood are undercut by the narrative itself. Why am I dressing up as a bunny to give happy memories to an AI I am about to shut down? Because the story attempted to have it's cake and eat it too, we're TOLD that these are not people and we shouldn't feel guilty about deleting them, but we're SHOWN that in every way that matters they were people. And whether we had to kill them or not to save ourselves, killing them should have been treated with more gravity.

We have a guy tell us that he was PROUD that he took the same job in death that he had in life and that he STAYED TRUE TO HIMSELF. Why is this AI that I've already shut down saying this? Because he wasn't a program, he a person, a person whose existence I just ended and ending his existence even if I did it to save all life in the universe should have been treated with more respect.

[MikkoAkure]

Here's the thing, if someone suggested we kill every single Garlean so Varis would have no reason to conquer the Source, not only would we refuse to do it, we'd think that person was a monster. However, with the Endless, the characters pout a little, grumble about it being hard, but they still wipe out an entire people between boat rides and ice cream and the reason for that is because they are deemed an inferior form of life.

You're comparing apples to oranges and the scenarios are completely different.

The Garleans are normal, mundane people comparatively with just one life to live. The Endless have already lived and died and are then brought back into an artificial afterlife after the incorporeal parts of their being are processed in a factory and then require the souls of others to keep going. But the civilization the Endless came from still exists. Alexandria is right there, no one on the Source is threatening their existence, and they are free to continue on. Turning off the terminals to save the world doesn't endanger the country they came from, no one at all is affected by their loss, and none of them even die in the traditional sense since they have already died before and have been on borrowed time.

The living Alexandrians don't even remember the Endless, they just know that when you die you go to the cloud but they have no memories of the individuals. That was the whole point of us interacting with them instead of just going straight to the terminals (also to pad out the zone). Their own families and loved ones won't remember them when they're gone and they don't remember them now, but at least we can if no one else will. They had no interactions with the living world at all except for one Turali expat who remote-controlled a robot.

The situation sucks and tough situations make writing more compelling, but this is not at all like killing a whole civilization of living people because not only is the rest of their civilization carrying on just fine without caring about them at all, they were already dead to begin with.

[Carolingian]

Big strawman there, we never mentioned those characters, focus back on XIV's golden city, not Omega, not C3PO, not Wall-E or your coffee machine that says good morning every morning.

But they're the same thing; sentient synthetic life-forms. AI with self awareness, the ability to change and adapt, with desires and dreams, with emotions.

[Turtledeluxe]

All of the Endless literally already had a chance at life and are subverting the natural cycle by using up other people's life force. There's no other form of aether that will work...it is stated in the game. The reason is because in XIV, mankind can't be alive without the soul aether. The memory aether on its own isn't enough.

[AnotherPerson]

4. If it is based on emotions, how come people die on the Source (or any Shard for that matter) if they believe hard enough (especially after the events of Endwalker)? How are they not able to live in perpetuity because "I REFUSE TO DIE". The only strong case for this would be the Warrior of Light but...we're basically a demi-god with plot armour that exceeds the limits and constraints of the world building in may ways. The WoL is not a good benchmark to define what is possible of others in the world building. You then turn Dynamis into a belief system and...there goes any sense of tension in the story because you just render any death as "Hauchefaunt died because he didn't believe he could live (hard enough)" or any other such nonsense when a character is dying or has died. (I mean, Guloul Ja Ja died, surely he wanted to live hard enough to protect his people? No? That's not how that works? Okay.)

I would argue that using Dynamis to create bodies and maintain the lives of the Endless would be incredibly boring and would be more of a determent to the overall quality of the world building because, not only has Dynamis been used to destroy the literal embodiment of Despair, saving the "people" of Living Memory with it would only posit the answer to almost EVERY conflict as "why didn't we use Dynamis to resolve this" or "why didn't we save them with Dynamis"? (Granted, the writers in Endwalker sufficiently shot themselves in both feet and an arm for introducing this concept in the first place, but I digress.)

1 to 4. Dynamis is drowned by Aether because aether is denser in the same amount. That's why the ancients have a hard time discovering this energy source, because they're mostly unaffected by the sparse amounts of Dynamis. However, in large quantities, aether can be drowned out by dynamis as well. The story explained Zodiark was the one who covered the Etheriys in a shroud of aether as a cover from the Dynamis being sent onto Etheriys, which we later learn is only stops the symptoms but not the cause. That's what the Final Days were about. The source is many times rejoined and the original place where all the aether from the shards go. We have the Aetherial Sea in the source. It stands to reason the Source is the largest source of aether at the moment. Living Memory (and by extension Alexandria) is not in one of the shards. Far from it, they're a broken remnant at this point, with most of the aether and souls already returned to the source from the rejoining. Not to mention, the souls of the citizens in the Source is far denser than the souls of the shard. The main thing most people neglect is that -- the Endless doesn't have an aetheric soul. So they're not even 1/14 dense. It makes sense that they can maintain their existence through Dynamis because they don't even have a shred of aether left. The only main thing they have to worry about is Dynamis being drowned by the sparse amounts of aether that they might encounter (except they don't even know of the concept of dynamis so they wouldn't be particularly worried in the first place). Moving to Ultima Thule is more like a guarantee they won't encounter a large aetheric fluctuation that could drown their form away.

Dynamis is not the blanket answer to everything because you need huge amounts to be able to do anything with it, but in this case it makes perfect sense since the Endless of Alexandria are far less aetheric and have shown they have full capability to influence and use it to sustain their existence without the source of Life Aether after their terminals are deactivated.

I think the worst part is that ... We have an Interdimensional key (the Sun symbol which is also on Azem Crystal) that confuses people for eons on how it functions, but for some magical reason, it responds fine to prayers of desperate people trying to save themselves in a disaster to flee the Fifth Umbral Calamity (Milalla). Preservation completed their research into interdimensional fusion by augmenting their electrope with the key as the focus to gain access to interdimensional hopping & fusion.

By that note, I'm quite certain the Interdimensional key itself uses dynamis. A plot point that could have easily solved moving the Endless over if we had just taken the damn key and used it at Ultima Thule to open a portal directly to Living Memory.

You're comparing apples to oranges and the scenarios are completely different.

The Garleans are normal, mundane people comparatively with just one life to live. The Endless have already lived and died and are then brought back into an artificial afterlife after the incorporeal parts of their being are processed in a factory and then require the souls of others to keep going.

The living Alexandrians don't even remember the Endless, they just know that when you die you go to the cloud but they have no memories of the individuals. That was the whole point of us interacting with them instead of just going straight to the terminals (also to pad out the zone). Their own families and loved ones won't remember them when they're gone and they don't remember them now, but at least we can if no one else will. They had no interactions with the living world at all except for one Turali expat who remote-controlled a robot.

Do note: The Endless are effectively a term for the beings who have their own Aetherial Sea reincarnation system. They do get a memory reset after their time is up. It's not that different from the Aetherial Sea as portions of their memory gets blanked out afterwards, but the only difference is that it's not a full memory reset and randomized body reset. The process is different, but the ending result where they experience life and death with different people and different environment is ultimately the same.

Alexandrians not remembering the Endless and only waiting until they become dead to meet the Endless bothers me too -- but because it makes no sense narratively when the Endless did interact with living people in the past. It seems they just needed an excuse with the regulators. It's just poor writing at that point. :/ I think a large portion of the reason why Endless no longer seemed like people is because there's no 'living' citizens to interact with them, even though there's always new dead people becoming an Endless for them to talk to.

[CKNovel]

But they're the same thing; sentient synthetic life-forms. AI with self awareness, the ability to change and adapt, with desires and dreams, with emotions.

They aren't, the golden city shadows are simulations of people. They're coded to act in a way, to have specific desires, to have specific dreams, to have specific ranged of emotions.
They're snapshots of people who used to exist.

Take Wuk Lamat's "mother" who actually lived a whole life.
Then takes its copy that is a simulated ghost on which you force a whole existence.

In any cases, this wasn't sustainable and isn't mathematically possible. Even in the case they were the real deal, it's immoral to consume someone's soul to extend another's life.
There was no solution either because the demand would grow endlessly, just think about our graveyard, they can't hold all the deceased in the world, we don't have endless space for everyone. It's a sad reality, but it's a reality to accept.

[Infindox]

But they're the same thing; sentient synthetic life-forms. AI with self awareness, the ability to change and adapt, with desires and dreams, with emotions.

Actually I think the Omnicrons and the Endless are two different things.
The Omnicrons evolved to the point they are seen in Ultima Thule and are a sort of "evolving machine". They can learn, grow and adapt. They are actual life forms, just in a non flesh body.

The Endless do not evolve. All they are is memory data. They don't really learn anything being in Living Memory and seem to exist to be a coping mechanism for Sphene. They are the idea of "memories make people/ideas immortal" to the negative extreme. They are unnatural.

[dwodmots]

All we did was turn off a bunch of AI chat bots.

[Infindox]

Well, now the Warrior of light is a Genocider of Alexanderia, we killed creatures who could "Think, hear and feel".
the WoL's excuse? they had no aether so they weren't real, is that valid? maybe we should ask Emet-Selch he said

"To live in ignorance is a form of bliss, is it not? Just as it is for the likes of you. The powerless, the feeble, the weak... None of you belong here. My world is one of high magic. A place where lives burn brighter than a thousand suns... Not that any of you would comprehend such a thing. Your souls are fragmented, your aether thin and weak. You are broken. Ineffective, useless, an affront to my very existence."


I'd also like to direct you to a Topic made by Dave Fishnomer touching this exact issue.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...poilers-inside

You guys who think this really misread the entire plot.
First off we are not even the "genocider of Alexandria". They are still there. We aren't even the ones who attacked the civilians; Zoraal Ja did.

I don't know if you noticed but Sphene was intending on using the entire Source to fuel these "memory puppets". I don't particularly care at that point who I'm killing, it's now a matter of defense.

Also if you think at anytime in the plot we are ever like Emet-Selch, you have misread something.

[AnotherPerson]

They aren't, the golden city shadows are simulations of people. They're coded to act in a way, to have specific desires, to have specific dreams, to have specific ranged of emotions.
They're snapshots of people who used to exist.

Not entirely simulations. In the final cutscene after Interphos trial, Sphene mentions she was recreated with a portion of her memories as her time as an Endless (so not as a Queen of Alexandria but as a Queen of the Endless) - except this time she's no longer bound to Preservation's requirements for saving her people at all costs. At that point, we saw the true 'Endless Sphene's behavior' and it was pretty much the same thing, but no longer opposing us and making peace with accepting her end and handing us the Interdimensional key. A ruler who is no longer carrying the burden of preserving all of Alexandria. That's her own emotions and this time, whose emotions were not influenced by the memories of the original Sphene. From this, we can see even if the Endless have memories of their original selves, they still make memories afterwards. Memories that end up defining who they are in this lifetime. The only difference is that this time, Sphene is no longer bound by Preservation and has free will like the rest of the Endless.

The same applies to Endless Cahciua. She originally wanted to escape Living Memory but got stuck in the dome. We later learn she spent years trying to figure out a solution for the Endless when scouring Preservation's records, but ultimately resigned herself to erase the Endless because she couldn't find a solution to the energy issue. It's here we can see Cahciua made a decision between Duty and morality. Of course she would've preferred to continue living, but she didn't want to do that at the cost of harming another person due to the energy shortage. Otherwise, she would not have bothered to search for a solution for years. How would she have reacted to the people she met in Living Memory? It's an entirely new place for her to explore - which mean she encountered and interacted with plenty of different people. There's no such thing as a static simulation when you keep on introducing more and more people into it, but also let different people's lives run their course. If she was coded to act in a certain way, I'm quite certain they wouldn't allow desires for the destruction of the terminals. It's clear to me that there is free will at play here.

That's why I look at them more like clones that are separate from the original. They could have similar life experiences, but their choices would then diverge based on the environment they are living in. The Tenacious Tour Guide from the blue sidequest Well-wishing on the wishing well also mentions he was proud of staying true to himself and would like to be a tour guide in his next life (makes no sense because he is already a tour guide in his current life). All those instances are signs that the Endless have their own free will and memories to say such a thing.

The copy is ultimately just another clone. It's not the original. Clones on the other hand are still alive. It can be argued that the existence of clones are unethical if they're meant to replace the original, but they're alive and can feel emotions as any other being. The sustainability of the Endless was the real dilemma. That was the real problem - the problem where we never get a chance to address because we're "out of time". If we could solve the issue of not requiring Life Aether (and thus allowing souls to return to the Aetherial Sea), none of this would have been an issue.

Actually I think the Omnicrons and the Endless are two different things.
The Omnicrons evolved to the point they are seen in Ultima Thule and are a sort of "evolving machine". They can learn, grow and adapt. They are actual life forms, just in a non flesh body.

The Endless do not evolve. All they are is memory data. They don't really learn anything being in Living Memory and seem to exist to be a coping mechanism for Sphene. They are the idea of "memories make people/ideas immortal" to the negative extreme. They are unnatural.

You forget Endless Cahciua exists. She adapted to her surroundings. She aimed to escape Living Memory because she wanted to continue exploring new zones. Her determination drove her to learn about robots and computational systems to pilot a robot outside of Living Memory. She built an entire resistance when she learned of Zoraal Ja's plans. She looked through Preservation's records for years for a solution on the energy shortage for the Endless. When we reached Living Memory, she adapted to the circumstances of Sphene taking her time to prepare for Interdimensional Fusion to tell us to shut down the terminals because this is the most opportune time to do so. In the end, she was also able to spend her time with Erenville and see him grow up with her own eyes, thus no longer having any more lingering worries. Out of all the Endless we know, I'd say she evolved the most.