Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Turtledeluxe]

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That's why I find it extra disappointing that the game doesn't treat Alexandria's belief that it is memories, not merely the soul, that makes one alive with the same kind of consideration. It would have made for an actual interesting story and philosophical question. But Dawntrail insists on remaining really shallow and just handwaving it all away (just as it did with previous big problems and ethical questions like in Mamook), making the whole section extra frustrating because we're forced to just swallow the lacklustre explanation that Cachiua (and thus the writers) give us.

And yes, if we were to consider the Endless sentient then it could easily be argued that Cachiua is a villain and the WoL is an accessory to genocide. Especially when her request to erase all Endless doesn't even make much sense when she later explains that shutting off Sphene's terminal would shut off all other terminals anyway. So why even make the request when it's seemingly inevitable when stopping Sphene?

But I'm pretty sure that's just another sign of the weak and unsubtle writing of this writing team. A particularly heavy-handed way to force in extra stakes and sacrifices without it necessarily making much sense (same reason why we can't just shut down the terminals without erasing the data). It's not unlike how the ending of Mass Effect 3 forced you to also kill all Geth and EDI if you wanted to kill the Reapers.

So it's obviously not the players who are unethical for doing what the video game tells us to do. It's the video game characters doing arguably unethical things in-universe that are waved away by weak excuses thanks to weak and shallow writing. Like the OP said: the writers wanted a certain result and they didn't really put much care or thought in how they were going to reach that result.

I agree that the story in general is poorly written and shallow. I'm just not sure applying player based philosophy to Cachiua is very fair. If the Endless themselves don't consider themselves as real or alive, why should she and why should the cast? The idea that being remembered makes you living is exclusive to Sphene and one culture in Tuliyollal. I think it is explored insofar as we do hear Sphene's perspective...several times. And again the cast are all acting in what they perceive as an existential decision in a time restrictive setting with minimal resources.

Additionally that means maybe there's time in the patches for them to to discuss the consequences of the Endless and what happens to their memory ether when the cast aren't under these extreme conditions

[MikkoAkure]

And yes, if we were to consider the Endless sentient then it could easily be argued that Cachiua is a villain and the WoL is an accessory to genocide.

Can't commit genocide against things that already died before. Are we committing genocide by defeating Edda, Nybeth Obdilord, and the zombies and spirits they command just because forum goers could argue that they count as "life"?

The LIVING Alexandrians are still there, still carrying on their culture, and don't even remember the Endless. The only one who remembers are the WoL and the people who came with them to Living Memory, which was half the point of going around turning things off one at a time and learning about the people and remembering them before we turned out the lights.

The continued existence of the Endless put lives on the Source at stake and we were invaded by Sphene for their sake. Sphene couldn't figure out an alternative to the aether problem after hundreds of years and with far greater technology and experience with soul storage than anyone else on the Source so we weren't about to solve the problem in an afternoon. And if we just let them be and run out of aether naturally, they'll end up turning into monsters just like on the Deadwalk.

Ending the Endless was a mercy and restored the order their existence perverted. Everyone is meant to die and return to the Lifestream, no exceptions. The writing may be wonky, but a lot of the players are way too soft or don't see the bigger picture and get too hung up on the game making them feel bad.

[KylePearlsand]

Something that bothers me most about Living Memory is how many forum goers seem to like to label the Warrior of Light as a hypocrite for turning off Living Memory while quoting Emet Selch. Let's look at the WoL's actions in both instances.

Emet Selch sought to revive the past at the expense of the present and future through the rejoinings. The Warrior of Light fought back to protect the present and future.

Sphene sought to revive the past at the expense of the present and future through Living Memory. The Warrior of Light turned off living memory in order to protect the present and future.

Nothing about the Warrior of Light's actions in Dawntrail is hypocritical as they still pursued the same goal.

I'll be first to admit that I strongly dislike Dawntrail's MSQ, but this part of the WoL's character was in character. Sphene admitted more than once that she can not coexist with the rest of the shard. She needs to commit genocide against not just the source but other shards in order to fuel Living Memory. Sure, we can bring in Cid and this should have been at least able to consult him via linkpearl. But given we're dealing with a material that until just a few days prior in game didn't even exist on the source, it's questionable he would have been able to do anything to help. Stayborough proves that this isn't something that can be sustained. We know there were other areas like it that also disappeared with Endless that will never be seen again. Even if there were souls to fuel Living Memory, the remaining four areas will eventually fall into the same fate as Deadwalk and areas like it.

[AnotherPerson]

I agree that the story in general is poorly written and shallow. I'm just not sure applying player based philosophy to Cachiua is very fair. If the Endless themselves don't consider themselves as real or alive, why should she and why should the cast? The idea that being remembered makes you living is exclusive to Sphene and one culture in Tuliyollal. I think it is explored insofar as we do hear Sphene's perspective...several times. And again the cast are all acting in what they perceive as an existential decision in a time restrictive setting with minimal resources.

Additionally that means maybe there's time in the patches for them to to discuss the consequences of the Endless and what happens to their memory ether when the cast aren't under these extreme conditions

There was plenty of instances where we were not even given the ability to explain and talk about problems. The lightning-aspected soul sickness for instance... we have a cure for that and we discovered it in The First against light-aspected souls and bring it back to equilibrium. We brought it in the Source to cure the tempering of various races, may it be due to other primal influences like Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, etc. We have a solution. We never got to explaining it. Plot just jumps ahead and skips it. Why?

Time restrictive setting... it feels more like just poor writing in general.

Can't commit genocide against things that already died before. Are we committing genocide by defeating Edda, Nybeth Obdilord, and the zombies and spirits they command just because forum goers could argue that they count as "life"?

The LIVING Alexandrians are still there, still carrying on their culture, and don't even remember the Endless. The only one who remembers are the WoL and the people who came with them to Living Memory, which was half the point of going around turning things off one at a time and learning about the people and remembering them before we turned out the lights.

The continued existence of the Endless put lives on the Source at stake and we were invaded by Sphene for their sake. Sphene couldn't figure out an alternative to the aether problem after hundreds of years and with far greater technology and experience with soul storage than anyone else on the Source so we weren't about to solve the problem in an afternoon. And if we just let them be and run out of aether naturally, they'll end up turning into monsters just like on the Deadwalk.

Ending the Endless was a mercy and restored the order their existence perverted. Everyone is meant to die and return to the Lifestream, no exceptions. The writing may be wonky, but a lot of the players are way too soft or don't see the bigger picture and get too hung up on the game making them feel bad.

We have our own set of morals against people who wants to cause destruction and harm, but not all ghosts and spirits deserve to end up getting killed simply due to their racial distinctions. That includes the vast majority of the Endless, who are pretty much harmless civilians other than not knowing their existence runs on Life Aether provided by their original selves. Find a solution for their energy source replacement so the original souls can reincarnate, and suddenly the problems with Sphene needing to kill millions of lives will be solved because there will no longer be a geocidal dilemma. If we just let them be and run out of aether naturally... how much aether was left remaining? Unknown, just pressed for time. How much aether did the lives in Deadwalk Strayborough have the moment they disconnected from Living Memory? Long enough for them to sustain themselves and affect dynamis in such a state where ghostly apparitions transform the entire amusement park. I wouldn't say that's a small amount of time.

The Endless are clearly not a continuation of the original because they lack the soul of the original, but they can exist as an entity who thinks and acts on their own - which is essentially a clone of the original. To kill them means you also see allagan clones also not alive because they are also not the originals. We define our worth in the time we spend living in those moments. Not by the circumstances of our creation. Hence, it does fall more in-line with genocide. To kill or be killed kind of thing.

Sphene may not have figured out an alternative, but that's because she didn't experience what we had to collaborate on one. We have far more experience in esoteric concepts like dynamis and the transfer of souls. Cahciua is aware some lingering Endless who stay in Living Memory even after being cut off from their energy source. They only know it's due to strong lingering emotions -- but that has no explanation to how the lingering emotions make them sustain themselves without access to Life Aether. We couldn't even share the cure to the lightning sickness that plagues Alexandrians. We were not given an chance.

I'm just irked because I would've accepted the result if we could not solve the issue of energy storage after giving our best collaboration at preserving the Endless, but we weren't even attempting to do that. We just ignored the entire situation because the narrative implied clones don't have a right to existence as if we never met clones in the past. To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence.

[Carolingian]

Can't commit genocide against things that already died before.

Says who? And that's once again ignoring the philosophy that one hasn't truly died is the memory lives on.

But yes, if there's a whole society of sentient self-aware ghosts and we decide to kill all of them then that would also be considered genocide. But I'm pretty sure the summoned ghosts and zombies aren't sentient so this hasn't happened yet. It is funny though that once again there is a Hildibrand questline that handles this question of sentient zombies with more depth than Dawntrail.

As to the continued existence of the Endless putting lives at risk I'm honestly not completely convinced that's true. It seems that only the Endless who have been physically manifested consume aether. The ones that are just saved in storage don't. That's why Sphene has been manifesting less and less of them to save resources. But we don't really get to explore those other options of preserving them.

Yes, we are at war with Sphene, I agree, but even in war the targeting and murder of civilians is seen as a war crime and potential genocide. Yet in Dawntrail the targeting of innocent civilians is the main tactic of fighting the war. And we're just forced to go along with it without complaint and forced to swallow a terrible explanation that these sentient beings with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires don't actually matter and aren't actually "alive".

[CKNovel]

But yes, if there's a whole society of sentient self-aware ghosts and we decide to kill all of them then that would also be considered genocide. But I'm pretty sure the summoned ghosts and zombies aren't sentient so this hasn't happened yet. It is funny though that once again there is a Hildibrand questline that handles this question of sentient zombies with more depth than Dawntrail.

As to the continued existence of the Endless putting lives at risk I'm honestly not completely convinced that's true. It seems that only the Endless who have been physically manifested consume aether. The ones that are just saved in storage don't. That's why Sphene has been manifesting less and less of them to save resources. But we don't really get to explore those other options of preserving them.

You're thinking too deep, it's a simulation based on memories.
They simulate the thoughts, the feeling, the desires.

They didn't materialized everyone because they didn't had the resources. If they had enough they would've done it.

The technology ate too much aether, wasn't sustainable and will never be sustainable even if they had a Dyson Sphere, because the demands grows infinitely.
We could either provide them an infinite source of energy to fuel a simulation or shut it down.

If Sphene actually wanted to cap the aether consumption she would've done it way before she started murdering people for their soul juice and livers.

[MikkoAkure]

But yes, if there's a whole society of sentient self-aware ghosts and we decide to kill all of them then that would also be considered genocide.

The Endless aren’t a society, they’re a zoo.

They’re preserved memories of the dead because Sphene can’t let go over her people. 90% of them don’t even have bodies and are locked in storage in the terminals until the system decides on drafting up “serendipitous” encounters. The Endless don’t do anything and have every single need magically catered to them. Living Memory isn’t even very robust and much of it is just a facade. Just off the beaten path are empty alleyways and monsters.

They’re also a perversion of the natural order of life. They’re an overly complicated graveyard manifested by a scientific approach at necromancy. We already know what is supposed to happen after you die and the Alexandrians decided against it and to plunder worlds of their souls to continue it. There is no incentive for us to prevent soul and memory aether from going back to the Lifestream as is natural.

We also can’t exactly fix it with Dynamis unless we’re in the depths of space because our world is extremely aether thick and even after sundering it has no effect here. It’s all moot to begin with because Sphene didn’t want to negotiate and we had to shut the terminals to get to Sphene.


Other undead seem to have varying degrees of sentience as well. Edda and Nybeth are the most preserved, and there are also undead Ronkan sorcerers who shed their corporeal form. Then there’s the whole thing with the Sirensong Sea where Lorelei, an undead siren, had a whole thing attracting and then crashing ships against the island. Other Ashkin in the books also show an awareness at their circumstances and an anger at the living.

[Zakuyia]

So in allot of ppl views we should sacrifice the other shards to let ppl who long since dead continue to thrive????

[MikkoAkure]

So in allot of ppl views we should sacrifice the other shards to let ppl who long since dead continue to thrive????

I think they wanted the writers to magically make it so that a bunch of randos from another world solve all the Alexandrian’s problems with their own technology using the laziest plot-device magic in the whole story because the game made them bad about ripping out the batteries from Sphene’s dying Tamagotchi.

[arstoka]

While I agree the debate is worth having and, not to shut down discussion, but it bears repeating that the writers really did not put as much effort into writing the story as everyone here (and in other threads) have put into analyzing what the text is saying.

Whether or not the Endless are "alive" and the player committed genocide on the people, the perceived intention of the writers was to create a zone that would illicit strong emotional reactions on a very surface level.

The text asks us to imagine meeting people we've lost and have to give them up. That's sad, possibly cathartic. Who wouldn't want to have the ability to tie up loose ends with someone, to spend a little more time with them, to get to say your last goodbye or speak your mind before they pass on. It's a sentiment that many people could resonate with.

The narrative wants you to believe what you are doing is okay and that, in some ways, you are helping the dead move on (evidenced by the lingering quest NPCs once the terminals are shut down).

The truth is, the people in Living Memory are dead. The only way they ended up there is through the process of death. Their memories are all that remain. It's a graveyard for Sphene who cannot let her people go (hence why the regulators delete the memories of the people who die). It serves no one any purpose other than to perpetuate Sphene's weird sense of preservation.

Furthermore, the narrative wants us to still try and respect her because the protagonist of Dawntrail, Wuk Lamat, wants to understand her, her culture and her people.

We're here to push the themes of the story that 'that we should do everything we can to understand another's 'culture' and the different types of 'legacies'. We're not suppose to think too hard about the implications of our actions because we're only supposed to engage with the surface level reading of the story, not its contradictions.

We can certainly argue with the ethics resulting from the writer's mishandling of the themes and topics but the intent of the author(s) has made it clear: it's a good thing the characters shut down Living Memory and we're all supposed to be okay with it. (I mean the egregious song 'Smile' plays during the credits, good gods.)

Whether or not you, the player, are okay with it is purely subjective.