Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Yumarox]

It was wrong to kill the endless, just as Sphene's motivations and plans were nonsensical.

By one half of moral theory, yes it is wrong to kill the Endless for the act of killing anything is wrong for it harms the life of another. By Kant’s moral philosophy in the FF14 universe harming or forcibly altering anything with a soul is wrong. The complication is Kant is not the only moral theory to judge the situation by we have utilitarian ethics as well.

Utilitarian ethics is judged not on the action, but on the outcome. In the case of the Endless was shutting down the Endless a better outcome then letting the Endless live as Sphene designed? The Endless need a constant supply of aether from other souls to keep going. To keep the Endless going more souls need to be harvested, and here is where keeping the Endless alive is no longer ethical under Utilitarian ethics because by outcome more souls are being harvested than souls saved.

If we allow Sphene to have the power to do what she needs to do to keep the Endless alive more souls are harmed than saved making saving the Endless an immoral choice under utilitarian ethics. The Endless without Sphene's plan will die out anyway without the souls of others to keep it going so leaving them as are doesn't save them. Destroying the Endless stops Sphene from having the power to harvest the souls from the source the unfortunate only positive outcome.

[Bibine_Bine]

Did everyone just forget all the lessons that Endwalker taught us?

Holy shit, so many people are derailing this topic into a debate as to whether the Endless are actually alive or not and entirely missing the point of other people need to die for them to live. And it's also an unsustainable process that has been snowballing out of control for a while at this point.

Did we forget this lesson at the Studium? Does Alexandria not have Electrope which can convert lightning aether into any other form of aether? Did Horoi just not care?



It was wrong to kill the endless, just as Sphene's motivations and plans were nonsensical.

Nowhere has it been established that it's actually possible for people to just convert aether into souls. That happens in the Aetherial Sea, and it's the only way it's known to happen.

[Yumarox]

Nowhere has it been established that it's actually possible for people to just convert aether into souls. That happens in the Aetherial Sea, and it's the only way it's known to happen.

The only thing close is when it was the other way around and we see that in the Relic weapons. The ARR Relic weapon eats souls and converts it into the the power the wielder of the weapon's soul desires of it. We also "Make" a new soul in the Heavensward relic weapon but that is the WOL's memories and souls birthing a new one through the weapon by feeding it the WOL's experience and memories and even then it is very limited. The Shadowbringer relic weapons are taking the collected trauma of warfields and making a weapon out of that.

The lore many times makes it clear that souls can be powered to do thing, but the other way around is not the same that is the whole point of Endwalker that the alterations of the soul with Aether is only temporary and the soul it it's own thing.

[Garruss]

We stopped a relentless AI that was going to kill everyone on every Shard and take their souls, what then? Would she go into space and do the same to other planets? Her plan wouldn't last forever and it was just holding back the end. We saved lives at the end of the day, the memories were just that memories. As was explained in lore time and time again the Soul has to return to the Atherial Sea and be allowed to be reborn, the Endless can never return to the sea and their souls sadly were lost to that sea

[Gaddes]

Holy shit, so many people are derailing this topic into a debate as to whether the Endless are actually alive or not and entirely missing the point of other people need to die for them to live. And it's also an unsustainable process that has been snowballing out of control for a while at this point.

Yeah, I just read through this entire thing and the original statement that is posed is "Our actions in Living Memory seem morally wrong."

But knowing what we know about how the Endless (whether they are truly "alive" or not) are not a sustainable people the way that all other discussed beings are, there shouldn't really be a moral dilemma with ending something that will most certainly bring about the entire universe's eventual death, thanks to their infinite need for more souls. At the very least, it was justified self-defense, because the Source was the direct next target for soul accrual.

[Bright-Flower]

We stopped a relentless AI that was going to kill everyone on every Shard and take their souls, what then? Would she go into space and do the same to other planets? Her plan wouldn't last forever and it was just holding back the end. We saved lives at the end of the day, the memories were just that memories. As was explained in lore time and time again the Soul has to return to the Atherial Sea and be allowed to be reborn, the Endless can never return to the sea and their souls sadly were lost to that sea

Or worse, their souls weren't allowed back to the sea but were spent as batteries.

[Turtledeluxe]

Wuk Lamat: Even if we cannot be friends right now, we need to find a different path forward. A way that Tuliyollal and Alexandria can coexist.

Sphene: I fear that can never be. There is no other path for us. It's too late.

Alisae: Hear me, Sphene . We appreciate your commitment to serving the Alexandrians and have endeavored to understand your beliefs. Be that as it may, you must know it is wrong to sacrifice our living to save your dead.

Sphene: For them I will do anything. No price is too high. if bloodshed will save my subjects, I will become history's most brutal Queen.

Reading is important.

[CamuiKushi]

I think my issue with the whole situation is that it feels contrived. I'm unable to suspend my disbelief that Sphene wouldn't be open to finding another solution.

[Ayche]

I think my issue with the whole situation is that it feels contrived. I'm unable to suspend my disbelief that Sphene wouldn't be open to finding another solution.

I repaired by suspension by accepting that Sphene was in the end just a friendly interface put on a rigid machine. Even if the other Endless had a limited sense of free will, she had none. Just a friendly face hooked on a AI system built to do one thing only.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I repaired by suspension by accepting that Sphene was in the end just a friendly interface put on a rigid machine. Even if the other Endless had a limited sense of free will, she had none. Just a friendly face hooked on a AI system built to do one thing only.

Except that she didn't only do one thing. She visited her people. Cared about their lives. She implored Zoraal Ja to make peace with his sister which goes directly against her needs. If the Turali make peace with Alexandria then they'd have to find other people to kill for lifeforce. She's only doing that because she LIKES Wuk Lamat, she can impede her own plans because she likes someone. Even after she deleted her own memories Wuk Lamat managed to reach her causing her to partially restore herself.

By the time Sphene has decided to turn to the Dark Side, Zoraal Ja has just used up the soul banks and killed a bunch of her people meaning the system is becoming bogged down by memories of the newly dead with no lifeforce in reserve. That's why she's so desperate. What program have you ever see get desperate? Sphene was never just a program.