Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Yumarox]

We can put this to a simple test if it is ethical or not, does the choice follow one of the two main moral theories, Utilitarian or Deontological?

To get the easy one out of the way it can not be deontological because the WOL makes an action for many souls and doesn't ask them all. This also would never work for we know the WOL doesn't work on this moral framework since under it all murder is wrong and the WOL does kill people. Without going through all of Kantian Ethics in detail the very notion that the WOL did this action without consulting everyone this action was done to first makes it a clear case it was not moral by this framework. Though the WOL has never used this moral framework this should not surprise anyone leaving only one other means.

Under the utilitarian framework, we look to see if this action created more good than it harmed, the outcome judges if it's moral or not. so did turning off the souls make for a better outcome for more souls in the universe? Since in FF14 people are judged by having souls or not as being alive it would be measured if turning off the Endless and stopping the need to consume more souls to keep it going saving more souls or harming more souls. It seems by the fact that they need to drain the source to keep it going longer that stoping it needs to happen as the Endless need souls to keep going and keeping things as they are means the Endless are going to consume more and more souls. Putting an end to it means stopping more souls being used for fuel in the future so that could be argued as a moral outcome. WoL has always been one to weigh the options of outcomes so a utilitarian framework seems appropriate.

So if stopping the Endless is an over all better outcome for more souls then letting things continue then the WOL is moral.

[Magikazam]

So I would argue that they weren't really alive until the Endsinger meddled with them.

So you would consider Omega as non-alive, since he was separated from the other Omnicron b4 Endsinger meddled with them? He does have desires as shown at the end of his raids and in the alternate future we prevented in SHB.

[TheMightyMollusk]

So you would consider Omega as non-alive, since he was separated from the other Omnicron b4 Endsinger meddled with them? He does have desires as shown at the end of his raids and in the alternate future we prevented in SHB.

We're also shown via Alpha that a being can gain desires and even a soul, given time and a chance to change. Alpha and Omega aren't bound to an overriding mind preventing them from doing so, like the Endless.

[Gortys]

All I get from these complaints is it's okay to be colonizer.
That and people not understanding how their own computers function especially cloud drives.

[Magikazam]

We're also shown via Alpha that a being can gain desires and even a soul, given time and a chance to change. Alpha and Omega aren't bound to an overriding mind preventing them from doing so, like the Endless.

But some Endless are shown to have Desire too, even desire to die/turn the thing off and rebels, so clearly being bound don't change that. We can't tell if it the same case for the souls too.

[AddictedToWitches]

I think the people who complain about this are genuine speedreaders.
The endless are effectively ghosts, they are algorithms and data based on living people, and are not alive, never have been, never will be. Not even all of the "endless" are properly in a state of revival at any given moment, and Living Memory has so many parts of it that are rundown and not even functional anymore.
The whole point of Sphene's character is she can't let go. Not of the past, not of the people who are long past. Death is the natural order of things, so keeping people alive has an obvious drain on those still living.
I have seen people try to say like "Oh, the creatures in Ultima Thule are actual living beings" and you know that is 100% a special case due to Meteion's enormous amounts of dynamis at play.
There is no ethics problem with ending the endless. These people are already dead. We're just allowing them to pass on. Cahciua spends the entire Living Memory segment of the MSQ HAMMERING this fact into your head.

[Galvuu]

The Ea are composed of pure aether, while still being affected by some physical stimuli (they can interact with objects, or be attacked with entirely mundane weapons, as shown with the rogue Ea that act as enemy mobs around the settlement). They're like elemental sprites with sentience.

Isn't all matter in Etheirys made of aether? I don't think this is a meaningful criteria.
You go over this in your later posts, but gaining sapience/self-awareness/a soul is something that can just happen at any point in XIV.

I definitely feel like there are a lot of implications to explore with the Endless and the nature of consciousness and life in XIV, but it's as I said in another thread- we're not given enough information, and both the story and characters basically don't explore this at all.
I think this topic is very interesting and worthy of thought, but Dawntrail brushes it aside in a shallow, infantile way.
The writers neither thought of this nor care, so all this nuance, thought experiments and philosophizing is ultimately consigned to the forums. Old XIV might explore this, but I feel that post-EW XIV just brushes these topics aside... the story basically doesn't even pose any of these questions though they're heavily implied with what's presented to us.

snip.

I don't want to veer into a "death of the author" tirade, but this type of argument from scripture has nothing to do with what most people are discussing.
Patch 7.1 could come out and tell me that all the beast tribes aren't really alive/conscious and, by necessity of the plot, killing them all off would be ok, and I'd still question this, especially in the face of what's been portrayed before. Even if that's what the writer thinks is true and intended to be transmitted, it's not what their work actually portrays in practice when viewed by most people (I think the author didn't put thought into anything and just made a cheap copy of Amaurot with AI instead of Ancients, honestly).
I'm not even definitely on the camp that the Endless are alive- I don't know what qualifies as "being alive" or what consciousness is, in XIV or irl- but that's why it's a subject of discussion. It honestly feels unnatural that the scions, scholars and brilliant people who are known to be curious, don't spend any time considering this.
It's like we ran into some alien machine that seems sapient/creative/conscious/self-aware and we don't wonder if it's alive or not, if it's like us or not.
For the purpose of the plot, it doesn't matter because the Source was under an existential threat and they had to be destroyed, but that doesn't immediately imply that they were alive or not, or what does it means to be alive. The game glosses this over with a lot of levity.
This rings hollow especially after Shadowbringers, where this is explored in detail with the duality of the Ancients compared to the Sundered souls, and a bit more in EW with the phantasms in the Ultima Thule, Omega and Alpha- which is what many people are drawing comparisons to.

[CaptainLagbeard]

The Endless aren't really people.
They're constructs based off of the memories and personalities of people.
They're essentially a machine with perfect knowledge of a person impersonating them.


But if you want an actual question about ethics regards to Alexandria, there's the removal of memories about dead people.
Is completely removing a person's entire existence right just to keep people happy?

[Alaray]

I interpreted that entire section as:

Rogue facsimile of a dead leader left with an imperative to sustain a "Living" world populated with what were, effectively (and heavily implied to be analogous to), ghosts of the living and that the protagonists' collective set of actions were done to send off the "Living" Endless as one may ritualistically do for spirits, ghosts, etc... symbolically letting them move on by having them finish a cornerstone moment there. And, the blackened electrope hearkened back to the sepulchers that the Yok Hui create to commemorate the dead.

Some of the aetheryte quests felt heavy handed with that idea - especially when I did them on Reaper, unintentionally.

After all, it is an entire area built from a misunderstanding about the idea of "preserving" memories of people, and the actions of that Preservation group ultimately mishandled those who had died by creating stitched together mnemonic copies who were only projected shadows on the wall (not really dissimilar, in a way, to the Hythlodaeus and other shades in Emet Selch's fake Amaurot). And, part of the theme of this section is the acceptance of an End, paralleling in contrast to Meteion's belief of salvation in annihilation.

And, a part of me liked the choice for an amusement park design for the space. The "one last good day," bit comes to mind and the reminder that playing on the playground, eventually, comes to an end. There is no magic utopia where everyone gets to play on the playground, forever.

At least, that was my takeaway I suppose.

[Evergrey]

The Endless aren't really people.
They're constructs based off of the memories and personalities of people.
They're essentially a machine with perfect knowledge of a person impersonating them.


But if you want an actual question about ethics regards to Alexandria, there's the removal of memories about dead people.
Is completely removing a person's entire existence right just to keep people happy?

Seeing how most are OK with the choice of reporting others if they express any criticism over others gameplay then yeah, if others can be silenced so that the rest can stay happy that's the right choice. /s