Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[CerusSerenade]

Note 1: if Endless are your precious citizens, dear Sphene, why the heck didn't you try to protect them? Put at least some guards around monoliths, you know? Especially considering that you saw and knew that we, hostile forces, have arrived into Living Memory.

Why we do even have to erase them instead of just shutting the system down? We know that only 1/10 of Endless are online, so that means they can be kept archived offline for no or much less energy. We could just put them all offline temporarily, without erasing the data itself, and take any amount of time to search for the solution of their problem. If we could fetch huge amounts of aether from 1st to 13th, we have all chances to reconfigure Sphene's system somehow. Maybe feed it the souls of voisent, lol, since they all want to die anyway. Perfect combo.

Note 2: when the fight with Robo-Sphene starts and she talks again about protecting her precious Endless, why couldn't anyone tell her - sorry, lady, we just erased all of them, so you don't have the reason to fight anymore?

Now, one could counterargument that we are effectively at war with Sphene's nation and we make harsh decisions in extreme circumstances. But erasing Endless doesn't serve to diminish Sphene's battle power. We are just targeting civilians, which is a warcrime - at least from Sphene's point of view.

Summary. I have a feeling that thay wanted no matter to implement the art decision of shutting down the beatiful realm, because they knew it would have emotional impact. But in doing so, they hammered the whole plot logic into a very questionable, to say the least, writing.

What do you think?

1: They explicitly explained that while Sphene was preparing for Interdimensional Fusion they couldn't easily stop, let alone suspend the process. They also explain that shutting down the terminals is the same as erasing the Endless, and even if we didn't, shutting down the Meso terminal would have the same effect in the end. You weren't paying attention.

2: There were still those in the Meso Terminal and the living citizens in Solution Nine. She doesn't care about JUST the Endless, but ALL her citizens.

[AlysCamoa]

The amount of people claiming the Endless are at all equivalent to LLMs, that the Scions tried to meaningfully persuade Sphene away from her cause, or that we shut down the terminals for any purpose other than to destroy the Endless while ignoring Sphene really speaks to the amount of cutscene skipping this expansion encourages.

At the end of the day, we did do something horrible. We played out Emet's example of moral relativism to a T. In the scenario we were given by the story, there really was no other option: we're gaslit into going along with Cahciua's plan (and Wuk's general stupidity) instead of doing anything even slightly more intelligent, so turning off the terminals to save the souls of the star is our only choice. So be it. That doesn't mean the Scions shouldn't feel horrible about doing so. Yet somehow Erenville is the only one who offers any meaningful introspection about the gravity of this plan. The rest of the group leaves Living Memory as a dead husk while smiling and laughing on their way back to Tuliyollal while a Disney sing-along plays. That's absurd. It's a complete travesty of how they've characterized this group, even within the trainwreck of Dawntrail itself.

Hiroi thought he was a good enough writer to handle these themes. He absolutely was not, and should be sent to an even deeper pit in CBU3 than Oda was.

[CerusSerenade]

The amount of people claiming the Endless are at all equivalent to LLMs, that the Scions tried to meaningfully persuade Sphene away from her cause, or that we shut down the terminals for any purpose other than to destroy the Endless while ignoring Sphene really speaks to the amount of cutscene skipping this expansion encourages.

At the end of the day, we did do something horrible. We played out Emet's example of moral relativism to a T. In the scenario we were given by the story, there really was no other option: we're gaslit into going along with Cahciua's plan (and Wuk's general stupidity) instead of doing anything even slightly more intelligent, so turning off the terminals to save the souls of the star is our only choice. So be it. That doesn't mean the Scions shouldn't feel horrible about doing so. Yet somehow Erenville is the only one who offers any meaningful introspection about the gravity of this plan. The rest of the group leaves Living Memory as a dead husk while smiling and laughing on their way back to Tuliyollal while a Disney sing-along plays. That's absurd. It's a complete travesty of how they've characterized this group, even within the trainwreck of Dawntrail itself.

Hiroi thought he was a good enough writer to handle these themes. He absolutely was not, and should be sent to an even deeper pit in CBU3 than Oda was.

Drivel.

Sphene was the aggressor, explicitly saying she would become a devourer of worlds and kill all life on all the remaining shards just to extend the life of her people. The only way to stop her was to shut down the Meso Terminal, which would also terminate all the other Endless.

You're calling self-defense to genocide a crime.

[AlysCamoa]

Drivel.

Sphene was the aggressor, explicitly saying she would become a devourer of worlds and kill all life on all the remaining shards just to extend the life of her people. The only way to stop her was to shut down the Meso Terminal, which would also terminate all the other Endless.

You're calling self-defense to genocide a crime.

Which is why we also went in and exterminated all the Garleans to the last man, woman, and child, right? Which is why when confronting the Telophoroi, we did our best to kill as many of them as possible rather than minimizing fatalities, right?

We're told the only way to stop Sphene is to shut down the Meso Terminal by Cahciua, who has been withholding information to railroad us into her own objectives from the second she finds us. Even assuming Cahciua is being honest despite that pattern of behavior, there was no way to extract Azem's paperweight from the terminal without shutting it down wholesale? There was no way to terminate Sphene's program, rather than the system as a whole? None of those options are explored by the Scions, who at every opportunity have endeavored to find another way that prioritizes their ethics over expedience.

Even assuming the story properly explored these questions, why would the Scions feel good about what they had to do? It was kill or be killed, to be sure, but the Endless themselves harbored no enmity. They didn't have agency in the actions of their regent. So why would you pin her actions on them?

But I'm sure you'll say this is all drivel. I expect nothing more.

[CerusSerenade]

Which is why we also went in and exterminated all the Garleans to the last man, woman, and child, right? Which is why when confronting the Telophoroi, we did our best to kill as many of them as possible rather than minimizing fatalities, right?

We're told the only way to stop Sphene is to shut down the Meso Terminal by Cahciua, who has been withholding information to railroad us into her own objectives from the second she finds us. Even assuming Cahciua is being honest despite that pattern of behavior, there was no way to extract Azem's paperweight from the terminal without shutting it down wholesale? There was no way to terminate Sphene's program, rather than the system as a whole? None of those options are explored by the Scions, who at every opportunity have endeavored to find another way that prioritizes their ethics over expedience.

Even assuming the story properly explored these questions, why would the Scions feel good about what they had to do? It was kill or be killed, to be sure, but the Endless themselves harbored no enmity. They didn't have agency in the actions of their regent. So why would you pin her actions on them?

But I'm sure you'll say this is all drivel. I expect nothing more.

We didn't have to exterminate the Garleans to stop Zenos, we never wanted to.

We never wanted to put an end to the Endless, but we had to. There was no alternative. It was either that, or Sphene exterminates all life on the source and the remaining shards.

Just as with Emet-Selch and the Endless, we will not sacrifice the living for the dead.

Apples to damn Zebra Cakes.

Yes, your argument is drivel, it makes no sense and ignores obvious information in favor of your personal head-canon and delusion that Erenville's mom is some scheming antagonist who is misleading us the whole time despite being... Erenville's mom.

[AlysCamoa]

We didn't have to exterminate the Garleans to stop Zenos, we never wanted to.

I've never disputed that, in the context of the (poorly written) story, the Endless had to die. We (the player character and company) are under no obligation to become the cows on the dinnerplates of Endless. Even so, us having a big ol' laugh party and sing-along as we leave the city we've just scoured of life is absurdly out of character.

Cahciua being Erenville's mom doesn't suddenly make her immune to analysis of her character. From the moment we meet her, she holds back crucial information that informs us about the grand designs at play. In the end, that serves her agenda perfectly, while denying the Scions to try and find true compromise between the people of Alexandria and the rest of the world.

You're literally lying. We did not turn off the Meso Terminals because we had some kind of agenda to destroy the Endless ("while ignoring Sphene" is a particularly aggressive load of bs).

That's not to mention, Cahciua cites sacrificing living people as her motive. It would be unethical if she was targeting them because they are Endless.

We did turn off the Meso terminals because we have an agenda to destroy the Endless. It's an agenda given to us by Cahciua, who withheld information from us the entire time we were with her. In fact, Cahciua's plan is explicitly stated to target the Endless in order to deprive Sphene of a reason to fight. We're destroying her people so that she no longer has a cause; to what end? Do we think she'll just forgive us for that? Then Hiroi, to his credit, goes on to say that doing this will make Sphene speed up dimensional fusion, which weakens the defenses of the Terminal. Alright, sure—processing faster requires more processing power. But in what other situations would the Scions choose the option that causes the villain's plan to actualize faster, rather than trying to find another solution? It doesn't even happen in this expansion. We wait for Bakool to try and attack us again after he takes Wuk's keystones. We wait for Zoraal to attack Tuliyollal again (still full of countless civilians) after the first time, electing instead to take a stroll around Sphene's farm. The only time we decide to be proactive is when it means the rapid and complete extermination of a new form of life we've just encountered (ignoring that they're not actually new, given the events of Ultima Thule).

[Bibine_Bine]

Which is why we also went in and exterminated all the Garleans to the last man, woman, and child, right?

I'd really love for you to direct me to the moment in the MSQ where we murdered innocent Garlean citizens and children.

Which is why when confronting the Telophoroi, we did our best to kill as many of them as possible rather than minimizing fatalities, right?

The Telophoroi were the aggressors. They were trying to kill all of us, we stopped them. It's pretty cut and dry there.

We're told the only way to stop Sphene is to shut down the Meso Terminal by Cahciua, who has been withholding information to railroad us into her own objectives from the second she finds us. Even assuming Cahciua is being honest despite that pattern of behavior, there was no way to extract Azem's paperweight from the terminal without shutting it down wholesale? There was no way to terminate Sphene's program, rather than the system as a whole? None of those options are explored by the Scions, who at every opportunity have endeavored to find another way that prioritizes their ethics over expedience.

It is literally stated that the Meso Terminal is connected to everything else in Living Memory. Even if there might have been another way, we have no time to figure that out because Sphene is about to become an emotionless digital construct hell-bent on exterminating every world she can get her hands on to sustain the Endless. I'm not even going to get into questioning Cahciua's honesty or possible ulterior motives because that seems like an entirely pointless and speculative conversation.

Even assuming the story properly explored these questions, why would the Scions feel good about what they had to do? It was kill or be killed, to be sure, but the Endless themselves harbored no enmity. They didn't have agency in the actions of their regent. So why would you pin her actions on them?

No one is pinning Sphene's actions on the endless. It's more that the Endless were required to justify her actions, and with them gone she no longer has any justification.

[AlysCamoa]

I'd really love for you to direct me to the moment in the MSQ where we murdered innocent Garlean citizens and children.

I see somebody has a strong grasp of rhetorical questions. We (the Scions) didn't do any of those things, precisely because we're capable of differentiating the actions of a state from the actions of its constituent citizens. So killing the Endless merely because Sphene did something makes no sense, given those previous cases.

But, we're forced to do so anyway because the (poorly written) story says we have no time to do anything else (despite Cahciua's plan specifically intending to speed up the thing we're trying to stop). Okay, so be it. Why do we feel good that we had to choose expedience over ethics? Why are we having a sing-along ending?

[Turtledeluxe]

The amount of people claiming the Endless are at all equivalent to LLMs, that the Scions tried to meaningfully persuade Sphene away from her cause, or that we shut down the terminals for any purpose other than to destroy the Endless while ignoring Sphene really speaks to the amount of cutscene skipping this expansion encourages.

At the end of the day, we did do something horrible. We played out Emet's example of moral relativism to a T. In the scenario we were given by the story, there really was no other option: we're gaslit into going along with Cahciua's plan (and Wuk's general stupidity) instead of doing anything even slightly more intelligent, so turning off the terminals to save the souls of the star is our only choice. So be it. That doesn't mean the Scions shouldn't feel horrible about doing so. Yet somehow Erenville is the only one who offers any meaningful introspection about the gravity of this plan. The rest of the group leaves Living Memory as a dead husk while smiling and laughing on their way back to Tuliyollal while a Disney sing-along plays. That's absurd. It's a complete travesty of how they've characterized this group, even within the trainwreck of Dawntrail itself.

Hiroi thought he was a good enough writer to handle these themes. He absolutely was not, and should be sent to an even deeper pit in CBU3 than Oda was.

You're literally lying. We did not turn off the Meso Terminals because we had some kind of agenda to destroy the Endless ("while ignoring Sphene" is a particularly aggressive load of bs).

That's not to mention, Cahciua cites sacrificing living people as her motive. It would be unethical if she was targeting them because they are Endless.

And as much as it's badly written (because why did she just come to realization that living from souls causes her guilt???), the characters are very conflicted about turning off the terminals and the player has dialogue options to offer their perspective. When the terminals are turned off, it's portrayed as melancholy and no one is laughing. As far as the ending, thr story is not about LM and LM isn't real so why would they still be crying over it? At most I think an Erenville or Krile scene would be nice, bc they'd still be thinking about it probably. But the writing is not the best as you have noted. It has nothing to do with ethical theories. We are lucky to get moments of characters having introspection alone at all. They just wanted to spend ending scenes showing you bs we have already seen an a cartoonist raid.

[Bibine_Bine]

Note 1: if Endless are your precious citizens, dear Sphene, why the heck didn't you try to protect them? Put at least some guards around monoliths, you know? Especially considering that you saw and knew that we, hostile forces, have arrived into Living Memory.

Why we do even have to erase them instead of just shutting the system down? We know that only 1/10 of Endless are online, so that means they can be kept archived offline for no or much less energy. We could just put them all offline temporarily, without erasing the data itself, and take any amount of time to search for the solution of their problem. If we could fetch huge amounts of aether from 1st to 13th, we have all chances to reconfigure Sphene's system somehow. Maybe feed it the souls of voisent, lol, since they all want to die anyway. Perfect combo.

The problem with this is the entire reason we have to erase them completely is because we have to eliminate Sphene's whole reason for continuing on her current course. If there's no more Endless, she no longer has a reason to commit mass genocide.

Note 2: when the fight with Robo-Sphene starts and she talks again about protecting her precious Endless, why couldn't anyone tell her - sorry, lady, we just erased all of them, so you don't have the reason to fight anymore?

Now, one could counterargument that we are effectively at war with Sphene's nation and we make harsh decisions in extreme circumstances. But erasing Endless doesn't serve to diminish Sphene's battle power. We are just targeting civilians, which is a warcrime - at least from Sphene's point of view.

At that point we'd been too late, and Sphene had already begun the reconfiguration process. Telling her then that all of the Endless are gone wouldn't have achieved anything.