Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[celfhelp]

She was only asking us. Not our peoples, nations,etc. Us as individuals, so she wouldn't have to fight us. That's all. She was still going to attack tulliyolal.

that's a fair, and probably more accurate, interpretation, at the time it just didn't register as that because no one seemed to react with that in mind. haha

[Loggos]

She was only asking us. Not our peoples, nations,etc. Us as individuals, so she wouldn't have to fight us. That's all. She was still going to attack tulliyolal.

I agree and in addition, I also don't think it would actually help Living Memory if Tuliyollal became Alexandrian because the souls of the Alexandrian people already seem to be (more or less) fully in use for their regulator system. They don't seem to have (enough) of them to spare to power Living Memory sustainably. So just increasing the Alexandrian people would probably not actually increase its surplus energy (at least not long term) because, assuming that many would probably also end up using regulators like most of the Turali's who got absorbed into the electro bubble - even if it's just newer generations/generations yet to be born, the life force demand for their normal regulator system would eventually increase more or less proportionally as well.

So in the long run Spehne needs to kill people to generate this surplus of life force. Her own society cannot generate it so she cannot offer all of Tuliyollal/Tural to become Alexandrians because it would actively undermine her goal.

(Also, I don't think it's very "peaceful" to say "give up your whole nation and way of life and succumb to us, otherwise we'll have to harvest you". That is just colonialisation/conquest, no matter how regretful Sphene is or how nicely she asks.)

[SDaemon]

she did try to peacefully resolve the issue, albeit briefly, and double albeit not in the most effective way

she asked wuk lamat (and by extension, us) to become alexandrian citizens, which would have resolved the issue without mass destruction, because a continent worth of natural death supplies far more 'empty souls' than just the kingdom of alexandria. obviously this isn't a rational or good solution, but it was a passive one

i also disagree that we just "chose to defend ourselves" by erasing an entire kingdom of people.

imo we overcorrected, because nothing was stopping us from going straight to sphene at the meso terminal and confronting her. we didn't have to turn everything off before hand, and the reason we DID do that ended up being completely irrelevant and useless. we 'killed' her people in an effort to demoralize her and it didn't. she wasn't even aware of it (frankly this is probably more 'oopsie' from the writers than it is something to dig into). hell, had we gone straight for the terminal she probably would've been far weaker an adversary

we could've just as easily "killed" sphene, taken the key, and left alexandria to naturally fade away, but instead we played God and sped up the process

do i personally think there's much of a difference? yes and no, but i'm just posturing on this side for the sake of discussion

We didn't erase an entire kingdom. We shut down the memory archive of Endless. The Alexandrians are moving forward and living their lives in Solution 9 and Heritage Found.

While I don't consider the memory constructs of Living Memory to be the true people, whose souls were robbed from them and used as fuel, that they are based on. I would argue shutting them down is a far better outcome then letting the place slowly run out of energy and turn off on its own, not that this was the WOL's purpose in doing so.

We didn't play God. Again, we took action to stop an entity that was unrelentingly going to destroy everything, including our world. The actions we took were described to us as being beneficial in hopefully not having to come to blows with Sphene at the critical moment. That just didn't end up being the case and we had to defeat Sphene regardless due to her programming. I might not agree with a kid like Gajool Ja ruling the Alexandrians, but now they have a chance to rebuild their lives in a way that won't destroy every other world in existence.

[Nyxs]

The people of living memory are the equivalent of a gif on your computer. They arent alive. If them remaining animated means the end of actual lives then they have to go.

Think of it as they are a virus destroying things slowly. Do you let it do its thing or do you get rid of it to save everything you have?

[Sated]

Wasn't "Sphene" we met just a memory that misunderstood her original directive (or took it in a direction that was likely never intended)?

She was an invading ruler with an intent to either conquer or kill the people of Etheirys - it was never going to be a peaceful resolution. We handled that quite well, I think.

Not only that but it's not like we forced her people to stop consuming souls, either... they still do that. We didn't change their way of dying and living.
It's still brought up in quests that our WoL is making a personal choice to not use the soulconsuming tech.

[Bright-Flower]

Yeah, Alexandria still exist in Heritage Found and Solution 9, but they are doomed for good now. We are going to wipe them out too. Their regulators no longer will have souls supplied to them, so everything in the "bubble" is doomed. Hunters in the bubble can no longer use souls, they will die trying to stop the monsters in that Lighting destroyed world. Which means eventually all of Heritage Found, Solution 9, and Living Memory will be overrun and uninhabitable. Also, we're going to put a stop to the use of Beast Souls. We're wiping out their entire culture, way of life, and any hope of continuing. They have one recourse : Abandon their culture, their home, and move to the source. Eletrope won't have use in the source without the abundance of Lightning Eather, so that'll be forgotten too.

There is no "happy ending" to this story. Alexandria is dying, and in about 100 years or so, will fade into obscurity and distant memory. If it takes even that long.

I think you're really overplaying the plight of the alexandrians. The msq patches may follow up on them, but they were left on a 'they can continue their way of life' note at the end of the MSQ. No indication that they'll have to abandon Solution 9 or Heritage Found. Also their guns and ships worked just fine when they left the barrier and attackd Tuliloyol so it seems like an assumption that electrope will have no use outside of Heritage Found.

Regulators are still being used. And while it's entirely possible that further story may have Alexandria abandon them altogether, there's no indication that we're forcing them to do so. And our only apsirations to free some souls are being plotted alongside citizens of Solution 9. There is no indication they're going to be forced to give up regulators.

Or that even if they did give up regulators, that would mean the complete destruction of their culture as if that's the only thing their culture has to offer.

You're projecting doom and gloom where it, as of right now, does not exist in the story.

[LuciferMournstar]

snip.

If their guns and ships worked like you say, why did they use Hunters with Beast Souls and regulators to begin with? Why waste the precious souls needed to keep Living Memory going on Hunters, if they didn't need to? Electrope may work for a while outside in Tuliloyol, but it was specifically said it converts LIGHTNING energy and needs quite a bit. Plus, what would be the point of the continued use of Electrope, when it's no longer needed because the source isn't assailed by massive amounts of lightning energy? What purpose would regulators serve without souls? Absolutely none.

I admire your continued nativity, I'll give you that. You really do try to look on the bright side (no pun intended), but life and the world can be cruel.

[Daralii]

If their guns and ships worked like you say, why did they use Hunters with Beast Souls and regulators to begin with? Why waste the precious souls needed to keep Living Memory going on Hunters, if they didn't need to? Electrope may work for a while outside in Tuliloyol, but it was specifically said it converts LIGHTNING energy and needs quite a bit. Plus, what would be the point of the continued use of Electrope, when it's no longer needed because the source isn't assailed by massive amounts of lightning energy? What purpose would regulators serve without souls? Absolutely none.

I admire your continued nativity, I'll give you that. You really do try to look on the bright side (no pun intended), but life and the world can be cruel.

From what I remember, the MCH fanny pack works by taking in the ambient aether and converting it to lightning, which is how they fabricate machines and turn guns into railguns. If the Alexandrians are willing to work with Skysteel or the Ironworks, they could probably preserve a small amount of their technology and culture after immigrating to the Source. The problem with this is that it's a complete retread of what happened to the Garleans, only the alternative to being assimilated is oblivion because Nero's group is already setting up shop on the moon.

[hydralus]

The game goes out of its way to inform you that the endless don't have souls. They are approximations of the memories of people who once used to be alive. It's no more a moral quandary than deleting a photo off your hard drive. A photo that wants to start a war and kill everyone to maintain itself, no less.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I fail to see the moral issue some people seem to have with this zone. Sphene also at this point essentially declared war on every other shard, viewing living souls as commodities for her artificial constructs.