Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[arstoka]

Perhaps Dynamis?

I mean, I don't disagree that it's a possible solution but...

There are some issues with Dynamis:

1. The Shard, like the Source, is still aether rich despite its denizens being of thinner aether (unlike Ultima Thule which is the opposite).
2. Dynamis is a McGuffin that only works in certain circumstances and when the plot needs it to. That isn't to say it _couldn't_ be used but it's ill-defined and the writers have chosen to not explore it in Dawntrail (much like other concepts they have decided to ignore...or forgo to make the plot work).
3. We also don't know the process for which new Dynamis based lifeforms are created. Again, it just kind of exists and is reactive to emotions.
4. If it is based on emotions, how come people die on the Source (or any Shard for that matter) if they believe hard enough (especially after the events of Endwalker)? How are they not able to live in perpetuity because "I REFUSE TO DIE". The only strong case for this would be the Warrior of Light but...we're basically a demi-god with plot armour that exceeds the limits and constraints of the world building in may ways. The WoL is not a good benchmark to define what is possible of others in the world building. You then turn Dynamis into a belief system and...there goes any sense of tension in the story because you just render any death as "Hauchefaunt died because he didn't believe he could live (hard enough)" or any other such nonsense when a character is dying or has died. (I mean, Guloul Ja Ja died, surely he wanted to live hard enough to protect his people? No? That's not how that works? Okay.)

I would argue that using Dynamis to create bodies and maintain the lives of the Endless would be incredibly boring and would be more of a determent to the overall quality of the world building because, not only has Dynamis been used to destroy the literal embodiment of Despair, saving the "people" of Living Memory with it would only posit the answer to almost EVERY conflict as "why didn't we use Dynamis to resolve this" or "why didn't we save them with Dynamis"? (Granted, the writers in Endwalker sufficiently shot themselves in both feet and an arm for introducing this concept in the first place, but I digress.)

I'd much rather prefer the more grey area of forcing the memories onto a cleansed soul and stuffing it into a robot or other corporeal body (see Ala Mhigo the dugeon's body swap fight, or Endwalker) (or robots in a similar vein to Otis) than saying "Dynamis did it". (I mean, the Regulators already do part 1, and Otis existed for like....400 years as a sentient being without any actual signs of being obsolete aside from when he took on too much lightning energy which killed him but that's an exceptional circumstance.)

[Carin-Eri]

*Snip due to text length*

Thanks for the reply - excellent points!

I'd have to agree that using Dynamis to explain this would feel... well, lazy. I guess it just occurred to me that the whole 'sustaining themselves through strong lingering emotions' had some similarities to how Dynamis was said to work.

Eitherway, agree that it wouldn't be a good use of it - it would basically become FFXIV's version of the Dragonballs.

[MikkoAkure]

So with that logic AI, Androids, or other forms of synthetic life-forms can never be alive or sentient? So Omega and Gigi are fake and belong in a zoo.

I didn’t say that they aren’t sentient. I said they’re not a society.

They only exist because Sphene cant let her people go. All their needs are met by the system and they’re just there for Sphene’s enjoyment. There’s a few different “habitats” with various things going on to keep them entertained but one of the Endless even says they can only watch the same play over and over so many times. They probably can’t even really form new meaningful relationships amongst themselves because who knows when one of them might get sucked back in again and only manifested centuries later. It took that one NPC 3 “reincarnation” cycles for him and his beloved from their actual living lives to be made corporeal in Living Memory at the same time.

Since they’re stuck there, there’s only so much they can accomplish and eventually the terminal is just going to randomly stick them back in the server after some time anyway. There’s nothing for them to do except exist, at least the Ancients were actively discovering things and trying to improve their society. Closest the Endless have is the guy who hands out buckets of fake popcorn.

It’s not their fault though, Living Memory is designed to just be some sort of artificial afterlife collecting the dead to be displayed. But in that regard it’s more like a zoo than an actual society.

[Carolingian]

Big strawman there, we never mentioned those characters, focus back on XIV's golden city, not Omega, not C3PO, not Wall-E or your coffee machine that says good morning every morning.

But they're the same thing; sentient synthetic life-forms. AI with self awareness, the ability to change and adapt, with desires and dreams, with emotions.

[CKNovel]

But they're the same thing; sentient synthetic life-forms. AI with self awareness, the ability to change and adapt, with desires and dreams, with emotions.

They aren't, the golden city shadows are simulations of people. They're coded to act in a way, to have specific desires, to have specific dreams, to have specific ranged of emotions.
They're snapshots of people who used to exist.

Take Wuk Lamat's "mother" who actually lived a whole life.
Then takes its copy that is a simulated ghost on which you force a whole existence.

In any cases, this wasn't sustainable and isn't mathematically possible. Even in the case they were the real deal, it's immoral to consume someone's soul to extend another's life.
There was no solution either because the demand would grow endlessly, just think about our graveyard, they can't hold all the deceased in the world, we don't have endless space for everyone. It's a sad reality, but it's a reality to accept.

[Turtledeluxe]

All of the Endless literally already had a chance at life and are subverting the natural cycle by using up other people's life force. There's no other form of aether that will work...it is stated in the game. The reason is because in XIV, mankind can't be alive without the soul aether. The memory aether on its own isn't enough.

[Infindox]

But they're the same thing; sentient synthetic life-forms. AI with self awareness, the ability to change and adapt, with desires and dreams, with emotions.

Actually I think the Omnicrons and the Endless are two different things.
The Omnicrons evolved to the point they are seen in Ultima Thule and are a sort of "evolving machine". They can learn, grow and adapt. They are actual life forms, just in a non flesh body.

The Endless do not evolve. All they are is memory data. They don't really learn anything being in Living Memory and seem to exist to be a coping mechanism for Sphene. They are the idea of "memories make people/ideas immortal" to the negative extreme. They are unnatural.

[AnotherPerson]

They aren't, the golden city shadows are simulations of people. They're coded to act in a way, to have specific desires, to have specific dreams, to have specific ranged of emotions.
They're snapshots of people who used to exist.

Not entirely simulations. In the final cutscene after Interphos trial, Sphene mentions she was recreated with a portion of her memories as her time as an Endless (so not as a Queen of Alexandria but as a Queen of the Endless) - except this time she's no longer bound to Preservation's requirements for saving her people at all costs. At that point, we saw the true 'Endless Sphene's behavior' and it was pretty much the same thing, but no longer opposing us and making peace with accepting her end and handing us the Interdimensional key. A ruler who is no longer carrying the burden of preserving all of Alexandria. That's her own emotions and this time, whose emotions were not influenced by the memories of the original Sphene. From this, we can see even if the Endless have memories of their original selves, they still make memories afterwards. Memories that end up defining who they are in this lifetime. The only difference is that this time, Sphene is no longer bound by Preservation and has free will like the rest of the Endless.

The same applies to Endless Cahciua. She originally wanted to escape Living Memory but got stuck in the dome. We later learn she spent years trying to figure out a solution for the Endless when scouring Preservation's records, but ultimately resigned herself to erase the Endless because she couldn't find a solution to the energy issue. It's here we can see Cahciua made a decision between Duty and morality. Of course she would've preferred to continue living, but she didn't want to do that at the cost of harming another person due to the energy shortage. Otherwise, she would not have bothered to search for a solution for years. How would she have reacted to the people she met in Living Memory? It's an entirely new place for her to explore - which mean she encountered and interacted with plenty of different people. There's no such thing as a static simulation when you keep on introducing more and more people into it, but also let different people's lives run their course. If she was coded to act in a certain way, I'm quite certain they wouldn't allow desires for the destruction of the terminals. It's clear to me that there is free will at play here.

That's why I look at them more like clones that are separate from the original. They could have similar life experiences, but their choices would then diverge based on the environment they are living in. The Tenacious Tour Guide from the blue sidequest Well-wishing on the wishing well also mentions he was proud of staying true to himself and would like to be a tour guide in his next life (makes no sense because he is already a tour guide in his current life). All those instances are signs that the Endless have their own free will and memories to say such a thing.

The copy is ultimately just another clone. It's not the original. Clones on the other hand are still alive. It can be argued that the existence of clones are unethical if they're meant to replace the original, but they're alive and can feel emotions as any other being. The sustainability of the Endless was the real dilemma. That was the real problem - the problem where we never get a chance to address because we're "out of time". If we could solve the issue of not requiring Life Aether (and thus allowing souls to return to the Aetherial Sea), none of this would have been an issue.

Actually I think the Omnicrons and the Endless are two different things.
The Omnicrons evolved to the point they are seen in Ultima Thule and are a sort of "evolving machine". They can learn, grow and adapt. They are actual life forms, just in a non flesh body.

The Endless do not evolve. All they are is memory data. They don't really learn anything being in Living Memory and seem to exist to be a coping mechanism for Sphene. They are the idea of "memories make people/ideas immortal" to the negative extreme. They are unnatural.

You forget Endless Cahciua exists. She adapted to her surroundings. She aimed to escape Living Memory because she wanted to continue exploring new zones. Her determination drove her to learn about robots and computational systems to pilot a robot outside of Living Memory. She built an entire resistance when she learned of Zoraal Ja's plans. She looked through Preservation's records for years for a solution on the energy shortage for the Endless. When we reached Living Memory, she adapted to the circumstances of Sphene taking her time to prepare for Interdimensional Fusion to tell us to shut down the terminals because this is the most opportune time to do so. In the end, she was also able to spend her time with Erenville and see him grow up with her own eyes, thus no longer having any more lingering worries. Out of all the Endless we know, I'd say she evolved the most.

[dwodmots]

All we did was turn off a bunch of AI chat bots.

[Infindox]

Well, now the Warrior of light is a Genocider of Alexanderia, we killed creatures who could "Think, hear and feel".
the WoL's excuse? they had no aether so they weren't real, is that valid? maybe we should ask Emet-Selch he said

"To live in ignorance is a form of bliss, is it not? Just as it is for the likes of you. The powerless, the feeble, the weak... None of you belong here. My world is one of high magic. A place where lives burn brighter than a thousand suns... Not that any of you would comprehend such a thing. Your souls are fragmented, your aether thin and weak. You are broken. Ineffective, useless, an affront to my very existence."


I'd also like to direct you to a Topic made by Dave Fishnomer touching this exact issue.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...poilers-inside

You guys who think this really misread the entire plot.
First off we are not even the "genocider of Alexandria". They are still there. We aren't even the ones who attacked the civilians; Zoraal Ja did.

I don't know if you noticed but Sphene was intending on using the entire Source to fuel these "memory puppets". I don't particularly care at that point who I'm killing, it's now a matter of defense.

Also if you think at anytime in the plot we are ever like Emet-Selch, you have misread something.