Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[Turtledeluxe]

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That's why I find it extra disappointing that the game doesn't treat Alexandria's belief that it is memories, not merely the soul, that makes one alive with the same kind of consideration. It would have made for an actual interesting story and philosophical question. But Dawntrail insists on remaining really shallow and just handwaving it all away (just as it did with previous big problems and ethical questions like in Mamook), making the whole section extra frustrating because we're forced to just swallow the lacklustre explanation that Cachiua (and thus the writers) give us.

And yes, if we were to consider the Endless sentient then it could easily be argued that Cachiua is a villain and the WoL is an accessory to genocide. Especially when her request to erase all Endless doesn't even make much sense when she later explains that shutting off Sphene's terminal would shut off all other terminals anyway. So why even make the request when it's seemingly inevitable when stopping Sphene?

But I'm pretty sure that's just another sign of the weak and unsubtle writing of this writing team. A particularly heavy-handed way to force in extra stakes and sacrifices without it necessarily making much sense (same reason why we can't just shut down the terminals without erasing the data). It's not unlike how the ending of Mass Effect 3 forced you to also kill all Geth and EDI if you wanted to kill the Reapers.

So it's obviously not the players who are unethical for doing what the video game tells us to do. It's the video game characters doing arguably unethical things in-universe that are waved away by weak excuses thanks to weak and shallow writing. Like the OP said: the writers wanted a certain result and they didn't really put much care or thought in how they were going to reach that result.

I agree that the story in general is poorly written and shallow. I'm just not sure applying player based philosophy to Cachiua is very fair. If the Endless themselves don't consider themselves as real or alive, why should she and why should the cast? The idea that being remembered makes you living is exclusive to Sphene and one culture in Tuliyollal. I think it is explored insofar as we do hear Sphene's perspective...several times. And again the cast are all acting in what they perceive as an existential decision in a time restrictive setting with minimal resources.

Additionally that means maybe there's time in the patches for them to to discuss the consequences of the Endless and what happens to their memory ether when the cast aren't under these extreme conditions

[AnotherPerson]

I agree that the story in general is poorly written and shallow. I'm just not sure applying player based philosophy to Cachiua is very fair. If the Endless themselves don't consider themselves as real or alive, why should she and why should the cast? The idea that being remembered makes you living is exclusive to Sphene and one culture in Tuliyollal. I think it is explored insofar as we do hear Sphene's perspective...several times. And again the cast are all acting in what they perceive as an existential decision in a time restrictive setting with minimal resources.

Additionally that means maybe there's time in the patches for them to to discuss the consequences of the Endless and what happens to their memory ether when the cast aren't under these extreme conditions

There was plenty of instances where we were not even given the ability to explain and talk about problems. The lightning-aspected soul sickness for instance... we have a cure for that and we discovered it in The First against light-aspected souls and bring it back to equilibrium. We brought it in the Source to cure the tempering of various races, may it be due to other primal influences like Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, etc. We have a solution. We never got to explaining it. Plot just jumps ahead and skips it. Why?

Time restrictive setting... it feels more like just poor writing in general.

Can't commit genocide against things that already died before. Are we committing genocide by defeating Edda, Nybeth Obdilord, and the zombies and spirits they command just because forum goers could argue that they count as "life"?

The LIVING Alexandrians are still there, still carrying on their culture, and don't even remember the Endless. The only one who remembers are the WoL and the people who came with them to Living Memory, which was half the point of going around turning things off one at a time and learning about the people and remembering them before we turned out the lights.

The continued existence of the Endless put lives on the Source at stake and we were invaded by Sphene for their sake. Sphene couldn't figure out an alternative to the aether problem after hundreds of years and with far greater technology and experience with soul storage than anyone else on the Source so we weren't about to solve the problem in an afternoon. And if we just let them be and run out of aether naturally, they'll end up turning into monsters just like on the Deadwalk.

Ending the Endless was a mercy and restored the order their existence perverted. Everyone is meant to die and return to the Lifestream, no exceptions. The writing may be wonky, but a lot of the players are way too soft or don't see the bigger picture and get too hung up on the game making them feel bad.

We have our own set of morals against people who wants to cause destruction and harm, but not all ghosts and spirits deserve to end up getting killed simply due to their racial distinctions. That includes the vast majority of the Endless, who are pretty much harmless civilians other than not knowing their existence runs on Life Aether provided by their original selves. Find a solution for their energy source replacement so the original souls can reincarnate, and suddenly the problems with Sphene needing to kill millions of lives will be solved because there will no longer be a geocidal dilemma. If we just let them be and run out of aether naturally... how much aether was left remaining? Unknown, just pressed for time. How much aether did the lives in Deadwalk Strayborough have the moment they disconnected from Living Memory? Long enough for them to sustain themselves and affect dynamis in such a state where ghostly apparitions transform the entire amusement park. I wouldn't say that's a small amount of time.

The Endless are clearly not a continuation of the original because they lack the soul of the original, but they can exist as an entity who thinks and acts on their own - which is essentially a clone of the original. To kill them means you also see allagan clones also not alive because they are also not the originals. We define our worth in the time we spend living in those moments. Not by the circumstances of our creation. Hence, it does fall more in-line with genocide. To kill or be killed kind of thing.

Sphene may not have figured out an alternative, but that's because she didn't experience what we had to collaborate on one. We have far more experience in esoteric concepts like dynamis and the transfer of souls. Cahciua is aware some lingering Endless who stay in Living Memory even after being cut off from their energy source. They only know it's due to strong lingering emotions -- but that has no explanation to how the lingering emotions make them sustain themselves without access to Life Aether. We couldn't even share the cure to the lightning sickness that plagues Alexandrians. We were not given an chance.

I'm just irked because I would've accepted the result if we could not solve the issue of energy storage after giving our best collaboration at preserving the Endless, but we weren't even attempting to do that. We just ignored the entire situation because the narrative implied clones don't have a right to existence as if we never met clones in the past. To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence.

[Carin-Eri]

Sphene may not have figured out an alternative, but that's because she didn't experience what we had to collaborate on one. We have far more experience in esoteric concepts like dynamis and the transfer of souls. Cahciua is aware some lingering Endless who stay in Living Memory even after being cut off from their energy source. They only know it's due to strong lingering emotions -- but that has no explanation to how the lingering emotions make them sustain themselves without access to Life Aether. We couldn't even share the cure to the lightning sickness that plagues Alexandrians. We were not given an chance.

Perhaps Dynamis?

[Turtledeluxe]

There was plenty of instances where we were not even given the ability to explain and talk about problems. The lightning-aspected soul sickness for instance... we have a cure for that and we discovered it in The First against light-aspected souls and bring it back to equilibrium. We brought it in the Source to cure the tempering of various races, may it be due to other primal influences like Ifrit, Titan, Leviathan, etc. We have a solution. We never got to explaining it. Plot just jumps ahead and skips it. Why?

Time restrictive setting... it feels more like just poor writing in general.

Correct. The writers didn't really do their homework as far as previous expansions. But also.. you can't tell the writers knew certain players were going to make threads like this? It's poorly written, but their rationale is all in the script. A lot of the timetable stuff, alternatives fuel sources, etc are addressed by Sphene and Cachiua, a couple of times. You have to move to theories like "well those characters don't know what they're talking about and we do becuase umm, the Crystal Tower". I mean that's fine if you want to theorycraft. But I think the story is written in a way that protects itself from being deemed genocide, just with VERY convenient and on the nose dialogue.

And Endwalker did the very same thing to address the awkwardness of events going exactly the same despite the Elpis meddling.

That's why I don't think these are necessarily worth ethical analysis when they're just problems borne of writing, not ideological problems.

And ultimately we do agree on one thing. The writers are hovering around complex and interest theoretical concepts but treating with them with kid gloves for easy access emotional payoff. That sums up 7.0 in its entirety. It's all payoff with no buildup.

[MikkoAkure]

And yes, if we were to consider the Endless sentient then it could easily be argued that Cachiua is a villain and the WoL is an accessory to genocide.

Can't commit genocide against things that already died before. Are we committing genocide by defeating Edda, Nybeth Obdilord, and the zombies and spirits they command just because forum goers could argue that they count as "life"?

The LIVING Alexandrians are still there, still carrying on their culture, and don't even remember the Endless. The only one who remembers are the WoL and the people who came with them to Living Memory, which was half the point of going around turning things off one at a time and learning about the people and remembering them before we turned out the lights.

The continued existence of the Endless put lives on the Source at stake and we were invaded by Sphene for their sake. Sphene couldn't figure out an alternative to the aether problem after hundreds of years and with far greater technology and experience with soul storage than anyone else on the Source so we weren't about to solve the problem in an afternoon. And if we just let them be and run out of aether naturally, they'll end up turning into monsters just like on the Deadwalk.

Ending the Endless was a mercy and restored the order their existence perverted. Everyone is meant to die and return to the Lifestream, no exceptions. The writing may be wonky, but a lot of the players are way too soft or don't see the bigger picture and get too hung up on the game making them feel bad.

[KylePearlsand]

Something that bothers me most about Living Memory is how many forum goers seem to like to label the Warrior of Light as a hypocrite for turning off Living Memory while quoting Emet Selch. Let's look at the WoL's actions in both instances.

Emet Selch sought to revive the past at the expense of the present and future through the rejoinings. The Warrior of Light fought back to protect the present and future.

Sphene sought to revive the past at the expense of the present and future through Living Memory. The Warrior of Light turned off living memory in order to protect the present and future.

Nothing about the Warrior of Light's actions in Dawntrail is hypocritical as they still pursued the same goal.

I'll be first to admit that I strongly dislike Dawntrail's MSQ, but this part of the WoL's character was in character. Sphene admitted more than once that she can not coexist with the rest of the shard. She needs to commit genocide against not just the source but other shards in order to fuel Living Memory. Sure, we can bring in Cid and this should have been at least able to consult him via linkpearl. But given we're dealing with a material that until just a few days prior in game didn't even exist on the source, it's questionable he would have been able to do anything to help. Stayborough proves that this isn't something that can be sustained. We know there were other areas like it that also disappeared with Endless that will never be seen again. Even if there were souls to fuel Living Memory, the remaining four areas will eventually fall into the same fate as Deadwalk and areas like it.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

*snip*

There are two arguments made in Living Memory and when people take issue with the first, people bring up the second while never addressing the first.

1. The Endless are unnatural, inferior beings and therefore it's fine to eradicate them.
2. Sphene will be forced by her programming to destroy all life in the universe to maintain the Endless.

Here's the thing, if someone suggested we kill every single Garlean so Varis would have no reason to conquer the Source, not only would we refuse to do it, we'd think that person was a monster. However, with the Endless, the characters pout a little, grumble about it being hard, but they still wipe out an entire people between boat rides and ice cream and the reason for that is because they are deemed an inferior form of life.

"I do not consider you truly alive, ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you."

And every argument anyone might try to make as to why the Endless do not meet the standards of personhood are undercut by the narrative itself. Why am I dressing up as a bunny to give happy memories to an AI I am about to shut down? Because the story attempted to have it's cake and eat it too, we're TOLD that these are not people and we shouldn't feel guilty about deleting them, but we're SHOWN that in every way that matters they were people. And whether we had to kill them or not to save ourselves, killing them should have been treated with more gravity.

We have a guy tell us that he was PROUD that he took the same job in death that he had in life and that he STAYED TRUE TO HIMSELF. Why is this AI that I've already shut down saying this? Because he wasn't a program, he a person, a person whose existence I just ended and ending his existence even if I did it to save all life in the universe should have been treated with more respect.

[MikkoAkure]

Here's the thing, if someone suggested we kill every single Garlean so Varis would have no reason to conquer the Source, not only would we refuse to do it, we'd think that person was a monster. However, with the Endless, the characters pout a little, grumble about it being hard, but they still wipe out an entire people between boat rides and ice cream and the reason for that is because they are deemed an inferior form of life.

You're comparing apples to oranges and the scenarios are completely different.

The Garleans are normal, mundane people comparatively with just one life to live. The Endless have already lived and died and are then brought back into an artificial afterlife after the incorporeal parts of their being are processed in a factory and then require the souls of others to keep going. But the civilization the Endless came from still exists. Alexandria is right there, no one on the Source is threatening their existence, and they are free to continue on. Turning off the terminals to save the world doesn't endanger the country they came from, no one at all is affected by their loss, and none of them even die in the traditional sense since they have already died before and have been on borrowed time.

The living Alexandrians don't even remember the Endless, they just know that when you die you go to the cloud but they have no memories of the individuals. That was the whole point of us interacting with them instead of just going straight to the terminals (also to pad out the zone). Their own families and loved ones won't remember them when they're gone and they don't remember them now, but at least we can if no one else will. They had no interactions with the living world at all except for one Turali expat who remote-controlled a robot.

The situation sucks and tough situations make writing more compelling, but this is not at all like killing a whole civilization of living people because not only is the rest of their civilization carrying on just fine without caring about them at all, they were already dead to begin with.

[AnotherPerson]

4. If it is based on emotions, how come people die on the Source (or any Shard for that matter) if they believe hard enough (especially after the events of Endwalker)? How are they not able to live in perpetuity because "I REFUSE TO DIE". The only strong case for this would be the Warrior of Light but...we're basically a demi-god with plot armour that exceeds the limits and constraints of the world building in may ways. The WoL is not a good benchmark to define what is possible of others in the world building. You then turn Dynamis into a belief system and...there goes any sense of tension in the story because you just render any death as "Hauchefaunt died because he didn't believe he could live (hard enough)" or any other such nonsense when a character is dying or has died. (I mean, Guloul Ja Ja died, surely he wanted to live hard enough to protect his people? No? That's not how that works? Okay.)

I would argue that using Dynamis to create bodies and maintain the lives of the Endless would be incredibly boring and would be more of a determent to the overall quality of the world building because, not only has Dynamis been used to destroy the literal embodiment of Despair, saving the "people" of Living Memory with it would only posit the answer to almost EVERY conflict as "why didn't we use Dynamis to resolve this" or "why didn't we save them with Dynamis"? (Granted, the writers in Endwalker sufficiently shot themselves in both feet and an arm for introducing this concept in the first place, but I digress.)

1 to 4. Dynamis is drowned by Aether because aether is denser in the same amount. That's why the ancients have a hard time discovering this energy source, because they're mostly unaffected by the sparse amounts of Dynamis. However, in large quantities, aether can be drowned out by dynamis as well. The story explained Zodiark was the one who covered the Etheriys in a shroud of aether as a cover from the Dynamis being sent onto Etheriys, which we later learn is only stops the symptoms but not the cause. That's what the Final Days were about. The source is many times rejoined and the original place where all the aether from the shards go. We have the Aetherial Sea in the source. It stands to reason the Source is the largest source of aether at the moment. Living Memory (and by extension Alexandria) is not in one of the shards. Far from it, they're a broken remnant at this point, with most of the aether and souls already returned to the source from the rejoining. Not to mention, the souls of the citizens in the Source is far denser than the souls of the shard. The main thing most people neglect is that -- the Endless doesn't have an aetheric soul. So they're not even 1/14 dense. It makes sense that they can maintain their existence through Dynamis because they don't even have a shred of aether left. The only main thing they have to worry about is Dynamis being drowned by the sparse amounts of aether that they might encounter (except they don't even know of the concept of dynamis so they wouldn't be particularly worried in the first place). Moving to Ultima Thule is more like a guarantee they won't encounter a large aetheric fluctuation that could drown their form away.

Dynamis is not the blanket answer to everything because you need huge amounts to be able to do anything with it, but in this case it makes perfect sense since the Endless of Alexandria are far less aetheric and have shown they have full capability to influence and use it to sustain their existence without the source of Life Aether after their terminals are deactivated.

I think the worst part is that ... We have an Interdimensional key (the Sun symbol which is also on Azem Crystal) that confuses people for eons on how it functions, but for some magical reason, it responds fine to prayers of desperate people trying to save themselves in a disaster to flee the Fifth Umbral Calamity (Milalla). Preservation completed their research into interdimensional fusion by augmenting their electrope with the key as the focus to gain access to interdimensional hopping & fusion.

By that note, I'm quite certain the Interdimensional key itself uses dynamis. A plot point that could have easily solved moving the Endless over if we had just taken the damn key and used it at Ultima Thule to open a portal directly to Living Memory.

You're comparing apples to oranges and the scenarios are completely different.

The Garleans are normal, mundane people comparatively with just one life to live. The Endless have already lived and died and are then brought back into an artificial afterlife after the incorporeal parts of their being are processed in a factory and then require the souls of others to keep going.

The living Alexandrians don't even remember the Endless, they just know that when you die you go to the cloud but they have no memories of the individuals. That was the whole point of us interacting with them instead of just going straight to the terminals (also to pad out the zone). Their own families and loved ones won't remember them when they're gone and they don't remember them now, but at least we can if no one else will. They had no interactions with the living world at all except for one Turali expat who remote-controlled a robot.

Do note: The Endless are effectively a term for the beings who have their own Aetherial Sea reincarnation system. They do get a memory reset after their time is up. It's not that different from the Aetherial Sea as portions of their memory gets blanked out afterwards, but the only difference is that it's not a full memory reset and randomized body reset. The process is different, but the ending result where they experience life and death with different people and different environment is ultimately the same.

Alexandrians not remembering the Endless and only waiting until they become dead to meet the Endless bothers me too -- but because it makes no sense narratively when the Endless did interact with living people in the past. It seems they just needed an excuse with the regulators. It's just poor writing at that point. :/ I think a large portion of the reason why Endless no longer seemed like people is because there's no 'living' citizens to interact with them, even though there's always new dead people becoming an Endless for them to talk to.

[Carolingian]

Can't commit genocide against things that already died before.

Says who? And that's once again ignoring the philosophy that one hasn't truly died is the memory lives on.

But yes, if there's a whole society of sentient self-aware ghosts and we decide to kill all of them then that would also be considered genocide. But I'm pretty sure the summoned ghosts and zombies aren't sentient so this hasn't happened yet. It is funny though that once again there is a Hildibrand questline that handles this question of sentient zombies with more depth than Dawntrail.

As to the continued existence of the Endless putting lives at risk I'm honestly not completely convinced that's true. It seems that only the Endless who have been physically manifested consume aether. The ones that are just saved in storage don't. That's why Sphene has been manifesting less and less of them to save resources. But we don't really get to explore those other options of preserving them.

Yes, we are at war with Sphene, I agree, but even in war the targeting and murder of civilians is seen as a war crime and potential genocide. Yet in Dawntrail the targeting of innocent civilians is the main tactic of fighting the war. And we're just forced to go along with it without complaint and forced to swallow a terrible explanation that these sentient beings with their own thoughts, feelings, and desires don't actually matter and aren't actually "alive".