Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[SteakDriven]

Living Memory is a poorly optimized holosuite with all of its crucial data stored in RAM - the moment the power goes out, the data is lost.

[Nihility]

Living Memory is a poorly optimized holosuite with all of its crucial data stored in RAM - the moment the power goes out, the data is lost.

indeed, who knew half the playerbase were a bunch of geordi la forge's falling in love with the holograms

[Carolingian]

indeed, who knew half the playerbase were a bunch of geordi la forge's falling in love with the holograms

Good Star Trek reference but it's more like being Tasha Yar and having a special bond with Data. Or being Picard and arguing that Data is in fact sentient (with the main argument being that Data is intelligent and self-aware).

[Papayatar]

That said, none of the reasons they bring up for terminating their existence felt terribly convincing to me aside from the "sustained by living aether" bit...and I question why they were even designed with that specifications in the first place.

Honestly I wish the story went into why they specifically chose the Living Memory method. Is there some plot left on the cutting room floor where LM was supposed to be accesible to living people and actually make sense with the side theme of “you live technically live forever if you’re remembered by others”?

Cuz looking at it closely, what was the point of maintaining LM? The people there were erased from the memory of anyone wearing a regulator and they use up extra resources(souls) for S9 1UP system.

They needed the human souls for physical bodies, but why did the memories need to be given a physical form? If I squint I could maybe see maintaining this system of the LM people were only the initial Alexandrians who adopted the system. Then Sphene could play, I don’t want my people to be forgotten song. But she was adding new people everyday and putting a strain on resources cuz of “reasons”.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Honestly I wish the story went into why they specifically chose the Living Memory method. Is there some plot left on the cutting room floor where LM was supposed to be accesible to living people and actually make sense with the side theme of “you live technically live forever if you’re remembered by others”?

Cuz looking at it closely, what was the point of maintaining LM? The people there were erased from the memory of anyone wearing a regulator and they use up extra resources(souls) for S9 1UP system.

They needed the human souls for physical bodies, but why did the memories need to be given a physical form? If I squint I could maybe see maintaining this system of the LM people were only the initial Alexandrians who adopted the system. Then Sphene could play, I don’t want my people to be forgotten song. But she was adding new people everyday and putting a strain on resources cuz of “reasons”.

Whoever wrote this prioritized emotion over logic. They wanted people to feel certain things at certain times and didn't care if it made sense. But all I could think about was how little sense any of this made. There are already better ways of preserving people in the world of the game. Separating soul from memory then needing lifeforce is moronic given souls are eternal. If they are just AI, why erase everyone's memory of them? Who are they walking around for? It just all makes no sense.

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Are people really arguing the moral ethics of shutting down the Soul Sucker 9000?

[KageTokage]

Are people really arguing the moral ethics of shutting down the Soul Sucker 9000?

There is no question that it had to be done because the plot contrived itself to make it necessary.

It's more the lack of actual contemplation about that matter that came across as awkward to me because everyone is just totally on-board with it following Cahciua's insistence that there's no value to their existence (Which should be highly subjective depending on whether or not someone considers a soul or memories more integral to defining someone's existence.). You can't just say "These people are fake and don't matter", then do absolutely nothing to further convince the viewer of that, especially when it's stressed earlier in the MSQ that people do not truly die as long as they're remembered...which largely cannot happen for those in Living Memory due to the regulators, so we're effectively rendering them deader then dead in that respect.

They could have chosen to avoid that by not having them all be deleted permanently (And perhaps they could still end up doing that in the post-MSQ), but it all came across as rather tone-deaf...though it wouldn't be the first time considering my feelings on EW which similarly aimed to moralize and stir up emotions in a manner that was seemingly oblivious to various uncomfortable implications made in the process...

[Turtledeluxe]

There is no question that it had to be done because the plot contrived itself to make it necessary.

It's more the lack of actual contemplation about that matter that came across as awkward to me because everyone is just totally on-board with it following Cahciua's insistence that there's no value to their existence (Which should be highly subjective depending on whether or not someone considers a soul or memories more integral to defining someone's existence.). You can't just say "These people are fake and don't matter", then do absolutely nothing to further convince the viewer of that, especially when it's stressed earlier in the MSQ that people do not truly die as long as they're remembered...which largely cannot happen for those in Living Memory due to the regulators, so we're effectively rendering them deader then dead in that respect.

They could have chosen to avoid that by not having them all be deleted permanently (And perhaps they could still end up doing that in the post-MSQ), but it all came across as rather tone-deaf...though it wouldn't be the first time considering my feelings on EW which similarly aimed to moralize and stir up emotions in a manner that was seemingly oblivious to various uncomfortable implications made in the process...

The idea that being remembered qualifies as being alive is pushed by a minority of characters in MSQ and has no bearing on reality.

We also don't really know what happens to the memory aether as far as I know. Maybe it rejoins the original soul in the aetherial sea? We don't know really know. I mean is anyone in XIV dead? The souls of the dead are also alive in all "perceivable ways". If just being perceivably the same as something that's alive makes you alive, then no one in XIV is actually dead and the use of word in general is meaningless.

[CVXIV]

The endless are essentially spirits that we help in moving on to the other side and return to the lifestream.
At least, that is the feeling I get from the side quests where some have a strong enough will to remain and see their duty through, it reminds me of ghosts.

Is what happens to them unfortunate? Yes, but there isn't much that can be done about it. What we know about them basically boils down to them needing the souls of the living to sustain themselves and continue as they are.

Sphene refused to listen to reason, to cooperate despite the many attempts to do so.
Instead of finding an alternative, she chose the drastic option to ensure her people would be safe.
We didn't have enough time to deliberate and come up with an alternative, and I know people will point to the gondola scene or the play, showing that we had enough time to do those activities.

However the story does show that yes, we do have the time for it. Could we have discussed what to do alternatively? Perhaps, but would we have been able to put any plan on action before Sphene does the dimensional merge?

Throughout discussions on this topic I've seen many alternative solutions that people bring up, but I don't see what we could have realistically done to remedy the situation. Otis is mentioned a lot, his robot self, that the endless could be put in bodies like that.

I agree, we could have, provided that Sphene cooperated and allowed us the time to do so. Electrope is a technology wholly unknown to us, it would take who knows how long to figure out how it works and how to transfer the endless to these bodies. Not to mention whether there exists enough materials for something of that scale.

Not only this, but the fact that when we arrive and help the man get his wedding ring, we are told that not everyone is able to become an endless right away which shows to me their system is already failing. It's why Sphene reached out to Zoraal Ja in the first place to collect more souls. Had the gate remained closed forever, what would have happened to them? We can see how part of living memory was already in disrepair, the inhabitants having turned into monsters due to the disconnection of interdimensional fusion.

I really don't see any other way we could have gone about this given how events unfolded during the story.

Sphene and the endless are both tragic characters, and I think it's okay to feel bad for them and what happens. I never said what I have about the subject to say that you shouldn't feel bad and disregard their feelings entirely, but that we really had no other choice.

We're told insistently that living memory isn't natural, that they are going against the natural cycle of death and rebirth and through our actions we are able to let them finally rest.

Living memory is a flawed system, a bandaid to a much larger wound.
I believe it is meant to resemble a paradise for the departed, allowing them to reconnect with their loved ones but unfortunately it was doomed to fail.

People love to quote Emet-selch, and honestly it's a little bit frustrating because the actions are not the same. He too is a tragic character that resorted to an untold number of deaths because he desperately clung to what he once had and wanted it all back. In the end though, despite his plans being foiled he seemed happy and content with the lives of those in the source and the other shards.

"Remember us, Remember that we once lived."
Is exactly what he tells us, and exactly what we'll do with the endless.

[MikkoAkure]

But as you said either way it wasn't our call to make.

It would be one thing if the Endless were an aspect of life that could live on their own independently. But they are people who have already lived once before and then died and were given an artificial afterlife separated from the living after being deleted from the memories of the living. On top of that, they are chained to terminals that manifest them into existence at the cost of living aether taken from others, willingly or not.

It became our problem and our call to make when our world was invaded by Sphene with the intention of plundering the souls of our innocents to power her graveyard that the actual living Alexandrians barely knew existed. A lot of people seem to be oddly hung up on us deleting a bunch of people who already lived and died and are then returned to the natural cycle.

This is all on Sphene for making the decisions she took, not the WoL for having to shut the system down. Instead of accepting the situation of aether running out for the Endless, she couldn’t let go and took the drastic action of moving her entire people here and killing the locals. Instead of trying to find new solutions like a lot of people on the forums suggested WE make, SHE was the one with the time to figure something else out and in the end came up with what we got, obviously not anticipating the protagonist of an RPG being on the other side of the rift to protect their world. She and the innocent Endless ended up paying for that decision.

As well as that, now the living Alexandrians are forever separated from their world of origin and stuck somewhere else unknown to them.