Questionable ethics - Living Memory

[AnotherPerson]

The omicrons ended up as just robots and they couldn't grow or change so all they could do was mass murder everything because it was the only solution that resulted in 100% chance of safety. The ones we meet are just part of the ultima thule memory museum of exterminated species as far as i know so they're not even the real thing.

the endless are just... memory recordings kept inside a habitat. Being able to simulate feelings does not make it real. Even at the best of times they were just turned on or off depending on who was visiting. Keeping them "alive" required killing actual alive people on a regular basis too. It's really kind of a black and white situation

Well, not exactly. The Endless have the capacity to affect Dynamis. That means even with just memories, they are able to experience, feel, hear, think, and respond accordingly to their emotions. It's not just an AI simulated response, or else Dynamis would not have been influenced in any way because they aren't 'feeling' the emotions they are acting out. We see this through Deadwalk Strayborough and from shutting off the Terminals still have people roaming around without the Terminal during MSQ, meaning they are not connected to the terminal's memory banks / not connected to the burning lifeforce of aether as sustenence. They exist purely through the strength of their obsessions/emotions and can persist even without direct access to it. Even Sphene in the final trial managed to influence Dynamis to restore her memory banks and go off on Wuk Lamat.

They were more or less copies of the original, with thoughts, hopes, and dreams.

In that regard, they're pretty much not different from any other existence in Ultima Thule. They just happen to be a race who is made of non-corporeal forms (not unlike the Ea). It's quite possible that the Endless can exist without a soul under the right circumstances -- like not having any alternate forms of aether drown out their dynamis to continue existing even when the terminals are shut down. Unfortunately, Sphene and Alexandria did not know the existence of Dynamis (and probably why only this specific form of aether and the amount of aether required to sustain the Endless was so difficult and cost-ineffective to maintain).

Heck, I suspect because they no longer have a functional soul but can still act like one provided the proper energy source is given, it's quite possible if Sphene discovered Dynamis, she wouldn't be able to use it either since Dynamis can be drowned out with aether, and thus makes it hard for electrope with lightning aspected aether and dynamis to play along together since they need to find an entirely isolated location with pure dynamis, and she has no clue how to find that as Dynamis is not detectable with aether.
In other words, we could provide a solution and the Endless probably could just exist in Ultima Thule perfectly fine, but any reflection and its fragmented form is not okay, even if the aether is very weak -- simply because aether exists and have a negative effect on sustaining existence for those who aren't even 1/14 aetherically dense.

A decade this game has existed, and people still do not realize that side content cannot ever be brought to MSQ.
Doesn't matter that 'we had a beast tribe like that', beast tribes are not going to be brought into the MSQ because they cannot force people to do side content.
Plus, the situation is vastly different, we cannot even say that those beings in Ultima Thule even exist. All of that was made out of dynamis, a recreation from Meteon itself, it does not mean those creatures are alive, no matter what the Beast Tribe quest says.
The quote from Emet being brought constantly is such a false symmetry that is also hilarious. And then people want to argue about 'sloppy writing', when the fault in their critical thinking to even understand how basic and non-comparable both scenarios are is huge.
But yeah, sure. We format a server and because of that we 'commit genocide'. Ffs.

Once, the Crystal Tower Alliance Raids was considered side content. It is not mandatory to clear them to progress with MSQ. It made no sense with the plot after though, so eventually it was included to be done in the MSQ as mandatory content.

And side content can be canon too, so that makes no sense. The residents in Ultima Thule may be dead in the aetheric sense, but they are certainly alive and kicking when using dynamis. Heck, there's an entire new world and can give birth to new lifeforms through Dynamis.

As for shutting down a server and committing genocide, I think a good saying refers to what Emet said. "I do not consider them alive, ergo I did not kill them." You can imagine that aged very poorly once you put that into perspective. The sundered are sentient beings with thoughts, hopes, and dreams, just far weaker and a fatal flaw of dying from old age. The Endless are also the same sentient beings, except with a fatal flaw in requiring specific forms of sustenance. They are alive. Flawed imperfect beings, but still alive.

[Nihility]

Well, not exactly. The Endless have the capacity to affect Dynamis. That means even with just memories, they are able to experience, feel, hear, think, and respond accordingly to their emotions. It's not just an AI simulated response, or else Dynamis would not have been influenced in any way because they aren't 'feeling' the emotions they are acting out. We see this through Deadwalk Strayborough and from shutting off the Terminals still have people roaming around without the Terminal during MSQ, meaning they are not connected to the terminal's memory banks / not connected to the burning lifeforce of aether as sustenence. They exist purely through the strength of their obsessions/emotions and can persist even without direct access to it. Even Sphene in the final trial managed to influence Dynamis to restore her memory banks and go off on Wuk Lamat.

they're just xerox copies of already dead people being fed souls. The soul that's affecting the real world is the ones stolen from sacrifices
You can make dead tissue move by sending electrical signals through it, that doesn't make it alive

killing someone and injecting an AI script into the corpse to simulate someone else until it degrades is not a shades of gray issue

[OMGJesuis66]

-snip-

They won't ever add Side Content as mandatory again, or else they would've done so by making Eden mandatory.
The whole patch with Zeromus would make MUCH MORE SENSE if they brought Eden onto the 13th in order to clash Light X Darkness. The First Sin Eater, against the Primordial Darkness.
Plus, Eden can terraform the land, which would also start fixing the 13th.
Unukalhai (Heavenswater Warring Triad NPC) and Cylvia(Final Shadowbringers Role Quest), both DENIZENS of the 13th searching for a way to restore the 13th back to its former origin, as you reunite them post SHB Role Quests in the First, were not even mentioned in appearance over a whole year of Void Plots.

As canon as it may be, none of it will ever be brought into the main narrative, and yes. It creates plot holes in every single expansion. Therefore you really cannot make a base on that argument.

The principle of Dynamis is still vastly alien to us, but my understanding is simple: They do not follow the compositions required for a living being. If they are dead in the aetheric sense, why Dynamis make them 'alive and kicking'? They are dead, Ultima Thule displays only extinct and dead people. Even if you make a new place for them, it is just a limbo. I hardly even believe any denizen of Ultima Thule could ever dream of going away of it, or even trying to go to Eitherys. Conjecture, all of this sentence, but we have nothing to prove or disproof it.

And no, please, people need to stop with that quote. The Endless ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE SUNDERED. They are not alive, they do not have hopes or dreams, and they have processed data where they act according to a code of past memories, nothing more. If when alive, a person had the dream of being the best chef, naturally the Endless version would have the same 'dream'. It's their aspiration of when they are alive, something that influenced their memories and importance, but it is not the person. It cannot evolve beyond that, the best representation is a Ghost unable to move on because they have unfinished business. If people cannot accept that it's just AI, that is by far the best comparison to what an Endless is, and a Ghost ain't a person.

[AnotherPerson]

They won't ever add Side Content as mandatory again, or else they would've done so by making Eden mandatory.
The whole patch with Zeromus would make MUCH MORE SENSE if they brought Eden onto the 13th in order to clash Light X Darkness. The First Sin Eater, against the Primordial Darkness.
Plus, Eden can terraform the land, which would also start fixing the 13th.
Unukalhai (Heavenswater Warring Triad NPC) and Cylvia(Final Shadowbringers Role Quest), both DENIZENS of the 13th searching for a way to restore the 13th back to its former origin, as you reunite them post SHB Role Quests in the First, were not even mentioned in appearance over a whole year of Void Plots.

As canon as it may be, none of it will ever be brought into the main narrative, and yes. It creates plot holes in every single expansion. Therefore you really cannot make a base on that argument.

If that's the case, FFXIV storytelling might as well be dead and any side plot might as well not exist since they can't add onto the story and world-building to the lore. I don't look forward to future expansions with this big of a plot hole in the storytelling aspect if they can't maintain a congruous narrative.

The principle of Dynamis is still vastly alien to us, but my understanding is simple: They do not follow the compositions required for a living being. If they are dead in the aetheric sense, why Dynamis make them 'alive and kicking'? They are dead, Ultima Thule displays only extinct and dead people. Even if you make a new place for them, it is just a limbo. I hardly even believe any denizen of Ultima Thule could ever dream of going away of it, or even trying to go to Eitherys. Conjecture, all of this sentence, but we have nothing to prove or disproof it.

Dynamis and [Life] Aether are effectively two separate energy sources and are unrelated to the psyche of a person itself. Dynamis is far more flexible because it can be whatever you want as long as you can influence and accumulate enough of it. The scions don't need to know how to use Dynamis to remake Ultima Thule. Neither did Meteion. That should speak volumes about how dynamic the energy source works. It's like a black box. You don't need to know how it works to use it. It just works. Limit Break is a manifestation of it. Healer LB3 and Tank LB3 are obvious examples. That's not the same as aether because we have to manually manipulate it to a certain way to get the desired output. Dynamis can be summarized as layman's creation magicks that gets better the more you have of it. Also Meteion basically used Dynamis to make 'life' exist, so... yeah, they're alive.

What constitutes your definition of being "alive"? That it has a corporeal form? That they only run on aether? Or by the definition of living - capacity for homeostasis, organisation, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction? What is it that makes someone 'live'? To breathe air? To have a beating heart? What about the alien lifeforms before they were converted in Dynamis beings like the Omnicrons? What about the Ea, who shed their corporeal forms? The dragons clearly fulfills all these requirements to be considered alive, but are they considered not alive now that they're reconstituted with dynamis? What about the Voidsent and Zero? There's a lot of things that can be defined as alive even if they are dead in the aetheric sense or don't necessarily fulfills all the requirements to be living. Heck Ascians can be considered dead because they're fundamentally a ghost / a soul that embodies a host. But after the events in Shadowbringers we can conclude they are very much 'alive' as an individual. You can survive being just a soul with the Echo. The definition of being 'alive' has constantly been refreshed throughout our journey.

To me, being able to "feel, hear, and think" are effectively the core tenets to being alive, as cliche as that may sound. Any sentient being that can do all those 3 things are considered alive to me because it shows they can react and respond to stimuli on their own accord and demonstrate growth of an individual.

And no, please, people need to stop with that quote. The Endless ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE SUNDERED. They are not alive, they do not have hopes or dreams, and they have processed data where they act according to a code of past memories, nothing more. If when alive, a person had the dream of being the best chef, naturally the Endless version would have the same 'dream'. It's their aspiration of when they are alive, something that influenced their memories and importance, but it is not the person. It cannot evolve beyond that, the best representation is a Ghost unable to move on because they have unfinished business. If people cannot accept that it's just AI, that is by far the best comparison to what an Endless is, and a Ghost ain't a person.

Yes, they are not the same person, but that doesn't stop them from being a person themselves. A better example is the Blue sidequest 'Well-wishing at the Wishing Well", where the Endless has lingering sentiments and he mentions he wants to live again in another life as a tour guide -- which makes no sense because he currently already is living his dream as an Endless. The words "And I'm proud of that. Proud of staying true to myself." means he definitely felt the influence to do something else in this new lifetime, and it was an active decision on his part that kept him as a tour guide in this life based on the stimuli he received in Living Memory. In other words, the Endless himself has the same dream that separates him from the original dead self based on the experiences he had during his time as an Endless. The Endless then become more akin to a clone with similar experiences and memories.

By the way, in definition of the game... a ghost is alive and is a person, just not in the same circumstances of being alive with flesh and blood.

Alphinaud: “Hmmm… In the past, when I sought to identify the true nature of ghosts, I came upon literature examining a similar subject. The soul was likened to a core that resides in the aether, and its presence is what differentiates us from such beings as sprites and arcane entities. Upon death, said core ordinarily dissipates alongside the aether that composed the flesh. However, it may be held together and bound to the corporeal realm, either by the will of its owner or by means of certain arts. In time, the soul may regather aether unto itself to assume another form, or find newly emerged life in which to abide. The pixies may be one such instance of this.”
Alisaie: "...If ghosts are merely souls without bodies, what does that make us? I think you've become that which you fear most, Brother dearest.”

Sentient too, in fact. Edda also exists. Edda can be considered physically dead, but her ghost pervades the City-States at 2AM Eorzean time if you haven't completed Palace of the Dead after completing Tam Tara Deepcroft. She is still alive but not in the same sense as being physically alive. She's also gotten some experiments done by the real boss of PoTD and went off the deep end since losing her fiance though.

[AnotherPerson]

they're just xerox copies of already dead people being fed souls. The soul that's affecting the real world is the ones stolen from sacrifices
You can make dead tissue move by sending electrical signals through it, that doesn't make it alive

killing someone and injecting an AI script into the corpse to simulate someone else until it degrades is not a shades of gray issue

So correct me if I'm wrong because I think I might be missing something basic here... From what I understand, Alexandrian technology is able to separate separate the soul into 2 different factors - the soul's memory and the soul's life force (life aether). Those are the two parts that comprises the incorporeal aether of the soul. The Endless are not given a full soul and overwriting the memories of that soul. They're given the soul's energy reserves because the Endless itself is just the soul's memory portion (stored in electrope) only without any life aether to sustain it. Together, they form a working function of an "aetheric soul" to be considered alive.

From my Point of View, it's like the hardware (memories that construct a person) and the batteries (life aether) are separated. The hardware isn't being replaced, the battery is. The Aetherial Sea does something similar as it resets the hardware (clean memory wipe after a period of time for reincarnation) but doesn't remove the existing battery. However, Alexandrian technology effectively does the same thing as the Aetherial Sea, just with the caveat of retaining the memories of said people 'who comes back to life' as an Endless with specific racial circumstances (lacking a flesh body because it runs on 'light' as its medium for its corporeal form) instead of being a full fresh start with randomized racial circumstances.

Based on what we know about aether, all the scions during Shadowbringers used a soul vessel during the time their souls were moved out of their bodies. It was comprised of both the auracite for the soul (soul's aether) and the blood infused crystal to carry the memories. They have a lot of similarities in their circumstances with the Endless during that period of time (namely separated components put together creates a working soul again). As noted, the Endless are comprised of memories and life aether to be 'alive', but it's difficult to sustain them.

Which brings about the idea of Allagan cloning. Doga and Unei are effectively dead people who are cloned from the memories of the original Doga and Unei. The clones lived in Sharlayan for a period of time as to find the inheritor of the Crystal Tower. They are effectively manmade, have a direct purpose / program upon their creation and work to execute it. Not unlike the AI of the Endless or even of the Sphene we know. However, Doga and Unei's memories and experiences they made after roaming in Sharlayan and Eorzea are their own. Are they alive then, or can you consider them advanced AI? Their soul is definitely not the soul of the original, but a copy. The originals may be dead, but during the time we met the clones, I consider both Doga and Unei, the two that did their utmost to carry on with the Crystal Tower legacy and creating a path for us to return back from the World of Darkness, I consider them alive as sentient people.

The only reason why the Endless is considered unethical to exist is because the original soul's hardware and battery can't be recycled into the aetherial sea together to create new life when they lose that battery (thus interrupting reincarnation for said soul). If they were to be able to replace the battery source with a sustainable one, then there would be no difference from being 'alive' other than having a different racial features from what your original race was.

To me, the Endless are certainly alive, but the Endless are also clones of the original who lead another life. You can argue whether it is ethical to keep them alive since they aren't the same people as the dead and can be morally wrong for another to take their place, but the residents in Ultima Thule are all technically clones and without a soul too. It doesn't mean they aren't alive either. If you look at them like separate individuals (considering the circumstances of their existence boils down to a full memory wipe after their time is up and a new one eventually takes their place), I don't think it's accurate to say they are not alive.

Hmm... now I think about it... if Allagan cloning technology can replicate life aether that's another plot hole that could've had an easy solution to the lack of life aether problem since G'raha had full access to this technology.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Hmm... now I think about it... if Allagan cloning technology can replicate life aether that's another plot hole that could've had an easy solution to the lack of life aether problem since G'raha had full access to this technology.

Unless he could get it built and running before Sphene could initiate dimensional fusion and start attacking the Source again, it's irrelevant.

That's one thing that alternate solutions keep forgetting about. Sphene was in the process of preparing for dimensional fusion when we went through Living Memory. Despite not being a gameplay mechanic (imagine how much people would complain if an entire zone had a time limit!), in story, we were on a clock.

[Annapaw]

Well, now the Warrior of light is a Genocider of Alexanderia, we killed creatures who could "Think, hear and feel".
the WoL's excuse? they had no aether so they weren't real, is that valid? maybe we should ask Emet-Selch he said

"To live in ignorance is a form of bliss, is it not? Just as it is for the likes of you. The powerless, the feeble, the weak... None of you belong here. My world is one of high magic. A place where lives burn brighter than a thousand suns... Not that any of you would comprehend such a thing. Your souls are fragmented, your aether thin and weak. You are broken. Ineffective, useless, an affront to my very existence."


I'd also like to direct you to a Topic made by Dave Fishnomer touching this exact issue.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...poilers-inside

[SnowVix]

Well, now the Warrior of light is a Genocider of Alexanderia, we killed creatures who could "Think, hear and feel".
the WoL's excuse? they had no aether so they weren't real, is that valid? maybe we should ask Emet-Selch he said

"To live in ignorance is a form of bliss, is it not? Just as it is for the likes of you. The powerless, the feeble, the weak... None of you belong here. My world is one of high magic. A place where lives burn brighter than a thousand suns... Not that any of you would comprehend such a thing. Your souls are fragmented, your aether thin and weak. You are broken. Ineffective, useless, an affront to my very existence."


I'd also like to direct you to a Topic made by Dave Fishnomer touching this exact issue.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...poilers-inside

"I didn't actually pay attention to the story."

For the millionth time, Living Memory had to be shut down to stop Sphene from going to multiple shards and harvesting souls to keep powering it. Sphene was going to commit omnicide to maintain it, because after everyone was harvested, there would be nothing left and Living Memory would grind to a halt anyway.

[Ultran]

They always tried to present her and the Endless as a threat to every shard, yet the only time we see them invading they are defeated within less then an hour after one nation preparing itself for maybe a week? I always found it very weird that they were shown as being so weak and incapable of conquering anything substancial. If they had opened a connection to the First or the 13th, the Voidsent or the remaining Sineaters might have eaten them all.

I have less an issue that we had to resort to genocide to stop her but if we have to pull that ultimate card then maybe present the enemy as something competent and really threatening, not someone who failed 10 minutes ago to invade a barely prepared single nation. With the Ascian we knew they had to be stopped at all cost. With Meteion we knew we had to stop her, no matter what, but for the Endless we could not find some minutes to even think about an alternativ? The WoL forgave Meteion and tried to free her from her evil, although she had murdered whole planets worth of people. After she "helped" whole planets to pick the path of despair? As far as we as the WoL is concerned, the only dangerous true Endless we ever encountered is Cahciua.

Although it would be quite the plottwist if it is revealed that she was the crazy one that just wanted to commit suicide, but did not want to die alone.

[TheMightyMollusk]

They always tried to present her and the Endless as a threat to every shard, yet the only time we see them invading they are defeated within less then an hour after one nation preparing itself for maybe a week? I always found it very weird that they were shown as being so weak and incapable of conquering anything substancial. If they had opened a connection to the First or the 13th, the Voidsent or the remaining Sineaters might have eaten them all.

That was Zoraal Ja, who had no real concept of tactics beyond overwhelming numbers. Which didn't mean squat against a great wyrm. (I think we also all tend to forget just how powerful a great wyrm really is against people who haven't, yknow, killed two or three of them.) Once they lost the advantage of a surprise attack, they had no real advantage, so they weren't really any better than regular troops.

Meanwhile, Sphene planned to skip the invasion and go straight for the dimensional merge. It's like comparing a gang of thugs to just dropping a bomb.