Dawntrail graphics update is very disappointing.

[Doopliss]

You do realize that (if we leave the shoddy DLSS implementation out of it, which is what I see more complaints about than "muh character's nose) only an absolutely tiny segment of G-Posing hardcores really has problems with this GFX update, right?

Put our complaints into perspective and adjust your expectations, is all I am saying.

I put my complaint into the perspective of them going: "We promise to keep your characters as close as possible" twice in a row. Also in the perspective of Koji going, on stage, "We don't want you to log in and think oh...ew... they look like that?" aloud. But I can tell you don't really care when you're ready to throw in a bad faith argument like 'muh nose' out there.

Anyway, do you have stats for your claim? I'd like to see them. Not once have I mentioned a majority, and even if it isn't a majority, it doesn't matter. They didn't fulfill the expectations of a lot of customers, so much to the point it's causing a lot of people who would rather never post to the forums--myself included--to speak up in hopes of being heard.

And, if you can't get any stats and decide to just throw in the "people who are happy won't complain!" argument for the upteenth time; you do realize many people who do have complaints would still rather not engage with the community in this space (and I can't blame them, it's embarrassing and sucks) and often just silently hope for things to get fixed, right? It's a normal human reaction. So maybe try adjusting your perspective a little bit, too.

[Granyala]

I put my complaint into the perspective of them going: "We promise to keep your characters as close as possible" twice in a row. Also in the perspective of Koji going, on stage, "We don't want you to log in and think oh...ew... they look like that?" aloud.

You do realize that no matter how little they change, some people WILL be obsessed enough to have that happen. It's inevitable.
I've been part of a "botched" character revamp in World of Warcraft, where I really did not recognize my Draenei afterwards. SE did INFINITELY better.

Is it perfect? No it is not. Nothing ever is. But on my char and on most of the screenshots I see here, they got damn close to it.

They didn't fulfill the expectations of a lot of customers, so much to the point it's causing a lot of people who would rather never post to the forums--myself included--to speak up in hopes of being heard.

So you did. (general you) For weeks now. It's safe to assume they heard what they wanted to hear. Whether they will implement any further changes at this point is anyone's guess. I somewhat doubt it because changing characters AGAIN could upset people that already used Fantasia and settled in. So I totally understand SE for being weary on this one.

In the end, the only statistic that matters is really the subscriber count. Unless there is a MASSIVE uproar (hasn't happened) / mass exodus (unlikely to happen, at least not due to character changes), SE will consider the changes a success and move on from the topic. THAT is the business reality of things.

I'd say, judging from the rather poor reception of the MSQ, SE has much bigger fish to fry right now in terms of subscriber count, than the slightly changed curvature of a Miqo'te nose or slightly more shiny lips.

[Doopliss]

You do realize that no matter how little they change, some people WILL be obsessed enough to have that happen. It's inevitable.
I've been part of a "botched" character revamp in World of Warcraft, where I really did not recognize my Draenei afterwards. SE did INFINITELY better.

Is it perfect? No it is not. Nothing ever is. But on my char and on most of the screenshots I see here, they got damn close to it.

This is irrelevant...? Comparing FFXIV character models with WoW's is comparing apples to oranges. The only thing similar is that they're MMOs. Their character creators are different beasts, and I don't recall WoW having the same promise/PR that FFXIV's team did.

So you did. For weeks now. It's safe to assume they heard what they wanted to hear. Whether they will implement any further changes at this point is anyone's guess. I somewhat doubt it because changing characters AGAIN could upset people that already used Fantasia and settled in. So I totally understand SE for being weary on this one.

In the end, the only statistic that matters is really the subscriber count. Unless there is a MASSIVE uproar (hasn't happened) / mass exodus (unlikely to happen, at least not due to character changes), SE will consider the changes a success and move on from the topic. THAT is the business reality of things.

Then they do something to circumvent that again like they attempted to here. Short side quests are evidently easy to implement. I also don't see how people who are neutral or happy with the supposed "unimportant and minor character changes" will notice or care for more "unimportant and minor character changes," taking how you view them into consideration.

And to be plain, I think the people who have been playing with a certain character look for literal years actually do take more importance over those who have had a certain look for a few weeks or months.

Clearly you want everyone to just shut up though. I'm sure people would be more comforted in being heard if those who took these nebulous "neutral stances" weren't so combative against those asking for changes.

I'd say, judging from the rather poor reception of the MSQ, SE has much bigger fish to fry right now in terms of subscriber count, than the slightly changed curvature of a Miqo'te nose or slightly more shiny lips.

...Okay, yeah, I'm done here; you're definitely just arguing in bad faith. You do realize that the graphic artists aren't the people who work on things like MSQ or even battle content, right, lol? Also, even the GFX artists that work on character models vs the more technical aspects of the graphical update aren't generally the same people. What is this argument even supposed to be.

[Granyala]

This is irrelevant...? Comparing FFXIV character models with WoW's is comparing apples to oranges. The only thing similar is that they're MMOs. Their character creators are different beasts, and I don't recall WoW having the same promise/PR that FFXIV's team did.

They did. They marketed it as "Your character but in HD". They stated "we do not want you to log in and no longer recognize your character, that'd be horrible!", showed very promising previews that looked close to the originals and then turned a 180 and DRASTICALLY changed Draenei on release.

So much so, that they had to revise some of the changes but we never got even close to what they displayed during the development phase in terms of "true to the original".

Sounds familiar? Yah, that's why it is relevant to put into perspective how SE did A LOT better, even if not perfectly.

And to be plain, I think the people who have been playing with a certain character look for literal years actually do take more importance over those who have had a certain look for a few weeks or months.

Your opinion, not necessarily SE's. Don't overestimate your importance.

I'm sure people would be more comforted in being heard if those who took these nebulous "neutral stances" weren't so combative against those asking for changes.

More changes: more possibilities for SE to screw up.
I happen to like my "new cat", so is it surprising that I do not want more changes to happen in an attempt to please a few diehards?
You're not the only one in this boat, mate.

Deal with it.

I have nothing against SE implementing more OPTIONS but I don't necessarily want CHANGES.

What is this argument even supposed to be.

Simple: context for the gravity of feedback. Compare MSQ feedback/reception and character changes and you'll clearly see the difference in magnitude.
I already stated that DEV teams are separate a few pages back, so no need pretending to be smart and trying to "educate me" on SE's inner workings.

[Cheapshot]

That last paragraph was not directed at you. :'D

Unless you think of yourself as "people".

Yeah it actually just seemed like none of it was directed at me, since none of what you said even responded to what I said. Why did you even bother quoting me if you didn’t even read my post?? Is it because my posts are typically articulate and reasonable and you were just in a hurry to dismiss me? I don’t know if it’s your intention, but you come off as someone who just wants to argue and not think things through or consider others words. I don’t appreciate being responded to in that manner.

[Granyala]

Yeah it actually just seemed like none of it was directed at me

The first part was very much directed at you.

You claimed that the old lighting was "more dramatic", that the "artistry did not get preserved" with the new lighting and presented that as fact and reason for complaints.

Quote for posterity, highlighting the relevant parts:

So a few things I disagree on. First, while the before and afters you posted show a large increase in visual clarity, they also show a marked decrease in how dramatic the lighting is. Lighting is one of the best ways to set the mood of a scene from a direction standpoint. A lot of cutscenes have suffered from new flatter lighting with less contrast. The scene at the end of ARR when Raubahn snaps and we get such intense shadows and red lighting is a good example. In the new lighting that scene is significantly less dramatic and impactful now. I think it’s important to preserve the original artistry of this game with this graphics update. Hopefully that’s something that will be worked on going forward.

Are you the artist here? Are you a member of CBU-III? Do you have ANY shred of hard data on what constitutes their artistic vision? Do you know, as a FACT, that the new lighting is further from what they originally intended or whether it is actually closer?

YOU DON'T.

None of us do. So claiming otherwise is extremely arrogant.

You may prefer the old "crappy" lighting, and that sentiment is completely valid.
But do not throw around implications like "the new system does not preserve artistic intent, so we need to complain that they fix it".

Much of the old lighting was simply a result engine limitations. If you've ever been creative and tried to mod a videogame, you would know that oftentimes you can't actually implement what you have in your head. Instead, you have to compromise with what the engine allows you to achieve.

Now imagine your favorite game overhauling it's GFX and giving you a shiny box of new toys. What would you do as a creator? Remake your mod and stray further from your original design intent or use the new tech to your advantage to get closer? What sounds more logical here, hmm?

Of course mistakes, like the erroneous baked reflections resulting in yellow housing floors, happen. XIV is a gigantic project. So Feedback is always okay and valuable. Yosida-sama saw it, and commented on it, so we know a fix is coming. *yay*

But When the designers do not react to it (and there will be cases like this since they have to draw a line somewhere), that means it IS looking / working as intended. Whether we personally like it or not, is beside the point.

That is why I happened to disagree with your assessment, so I quoted you.
Simple and easy. Nothing personal about it, I am not out to "get you" or anything.
At the end of the day, we're just 2 gamers who are passionate about XIV and share opinions.

[Cheapshot]

[snipped to fit in message max length]

Except you said none of that originally.

I don’t care to argue with someone like you much further because I disagree with how you’re retconning and framing these new followup arguments entirely as well. You don’t get to just throw quotation marks around things and imply they’re my words.

You claimed that the old lighting was "more dramatic", that the "artistry did not get preserved" with the new lighting and presented that as fact and reason for complaints.

You may prefer the old "crappy" lighting, and that sentiment is completely valid.
But do not throw around stuff like "new system does not preserve artistic intent".

You direct quoted me elsewhere in the post and I’m direct quoting you here so I know you can do it. I said some of those words yes, but I’ll thank you to not make up words, re-arrange words and remove or add your own context to frame what I said differently. I didn’t say “crappy”. I did not make a blanket statement saying a “new system” doesn’t preserve any artistic intent nor did I say that none of the artistic intent was preserved. I was speaking very specifically about the shift from higher contrast lighting to flatter lighting and how that changes the impact and impression of certain cutscenes. And then most of the rest of my post was about physical mesh changes on my character. Just let my words be in their original context thanks.

Now back to your original reply to me:

I still think the GFX look way better now.

Is the update perfect? Of course not.
Do I want to go back to the old system: hell no.

Was the update worth it: In my opinion: yes.

People here blare about "BUT CRAPPY MSQ!!" not realizing that these are done by entirely separate teams.
Sticking to the old visuals would NOT have made the story more engaging. You'd have gotten Wuk Lamat just the same.

Leaving out the part after “people here” since you decided that part of the reply abruptly is unrelated to quoting me, what did any of that happen to do with me? I didn’t disparage the new “GFX” as a whole, nor did I say anything about going back to “the old system”, whatever that means. You seem to be speaking to people based on some amalgamation of all the various opinions you’ve read on the forums and acting like it’s what everyone is saying. None of what you just said in this new post was in your original. I mean you can go back and actually read what I said and rant at me with semantics arguments all you want now. It doesn’t retcon your original reply or invalidate me calling you out for replying dismissively without reading.

[Xellith]

They did. They marketed it as "Your character but in HD".

If it's not written on the sales page, then it's not marketting. It's just words. It's best to not take what devs say as gospel.

[Granyala]

It doesn’t retcon your original reply or invalidate me calling you out for replying dismissively without reading.

I did read, you were arguing about the lighting with the poster before you.

You can wince and whine all you want, your words are there for everyone to see, including the context.
I stand by my original point, in that I consider the new lighting to be superior and do not want to have the old system back even if it is in your opinion "more dramatic".

End of story.

If it's not written on the sales page, then it's not marketting. It's just words. It's best to not take what devs say as gospel.

Even if it is in the marketing blob, that's still no guarantee, aye. Plenty of precedents out there.

[GreenLeafy]

I seriously don't understand the rise of the corporate shills and the absolute worship of Yoship and devs. Especially in a situation like this where you have paying customers , who not only have been paying a monthly subscription for years but also pre-ordering 40$ expansions every few years , provide their feedback and disappointment over the questionable and shoddy execution of features that were consistently promoted , by said company and devs , and failed to deliver. I don't understand whats so difficult to grasp that maybe if we had smooth HD graphics promoted and characters preserved we expect to not login and play through cutscenes of still present pixelated armour (on entirely NEW npcs and quests) , broken indoor lighting and change or outright erasure of features of the character that you've had in a cutscene for literal years. Or in some people's case - suddenly find yourself incapable to even keep playing because the update causes unbearable eye strain and no option toggle is available to fix it. Its just disappointing.

These developers aren't infallible. And this is a product from a million dollar company - they overpromised and underdelivered. Rushed through a job that required attention and continue to split their creative team amongst other projects instead of realizing that continuing to develop such a huge MMORPG requires all the resources at hand , especially if they're going to be doing some gargantuan task like a graphic overhaul.
I don't know what's happening behind closed doors and truthfully the details aren't entirely my business. But its incredibly apparent that the level of quality assurance is absolutely in the bucket in comparison to what they've provided before with this service. Stop excusing things like that and let people leave feedback about it otherwise they'll just continue getting away with feeding you lies and serving you slop.