Problematic notion about Zone 5 & 6 story bits.

[Iscah]

And what does Cahciua say to Erenville?

"Everything that lives must one day die, and that which has died isn't meant to return. This is only natural"

There was nothing natural about the calamity that happened. It was cause by a weapon of mass destruction.

You're conflating two separate things here.

The cause of the calamity – of anyone's death – is irrelevant. One way or another, people die, and when they do it is natural for their soul to return to the flow of the Lifestream.

Additionally, Living Memory isn't just some cosmic justice machine for those who suffered an unnatural death in the events that befell Alexandria – firstly, even if that was the original intent, they have long outlasted what years of life were lost to them, and secondly the place is a repository for all people who have died in Alexandria ever since. For these later additions, the use of regulators ensures that they do not die any kind of premature death, so they have already lived a full earthly life and are not owed more.

This part especially annoyed me. Especially with G'raha next to us, who literally went back in time to save people he didn't want to die.

There's a key difference between what G'raha did and what Sphene is trying to do: he is fully aware that the people he left behind are doomed and his only choice (at least as he understood it) was to leave them to their fate and do his best to save people that still could be saved.

Here, our choice is between prolonging the existence of these people who are so doomed they're already dead, and either actively asking to be turned off or completely unbothered by the prospect, versus the actual ongoing lives of everyone else in the universe. There's no real choice to be made, just a grim but necessary task before us.

[Alenore]

There's a key difference between what G'raha did and what Sphene is trying to do: he is fully aware that the people he left behind are doomed and his only choice (at least as he understood it) was to leave them to their fate and do his best to save people that still could be saved.

Here, our choice is between prolonging the existence of these people who are so doomed they're already dead, and either actively asking to be turned off or completely unbothered by the prospect, versus the actual ongoing lives of everyone else in the universe. There's no real choice to be made, just a grim but necessary task before us.

This isn't the first time a calamity happened and almost destroyed the world. In fact, Midgardsormr seems to consider there's hope since he wakes up and try to fix things after he went back in time.
G'raha left a world ravaged by Black Rose for another ravaged by light. There were living being in both world, both were following a near extinction event. Couldn't they try to fix what happened in their world, instead of dooming them all to probable oblivion?

But I understand the key of that sentence is "at least as he understood it". Which is my point, in fact. For Sphene, the Endless have as much right existing as her other subjects, and being saved in the cloud is just another step in their lives.
So we take the decision to shut them down, because her conception of what is alive is different to ours and we consider she's wrong.
Sphene is actually fully aware she's dooming other civilizations to save the Endless who will disappear if she can't find the aether to sustain them, just like G'raha is aware his timeline is probably doomed if he actually manages to save us / prevent the calamity. She doesn't see a choice, and only the grim necessity of killing people to save hers.

As I said in my post, they're only dead with the Source definition of the word, but are actually living forever in the Alexandrian definition.

About the Endless they're okay being shut down, except Cahciua and Krile's parent, I remember a few mentioning it, but I wonder if they realize it's permanent and they'll just fade away.
We're told we're erasing them (Krile's parents were looking for a way to erase themselves), but they seem to just think it's another cycle and they'll be recreated at a future time. But I guess it's still unclear if we just turned them off or if everything in the terminals is gone

[Cleretic]

There's a key difference between what G'raha did and what Sphene is trying to do: he is fully aware that the people he left behind are doomed and his only choice (at least as he understood it) was to leave them to their fate and do his best to save people that still could be saved.

Here, our choice is between prolonging the existence of these people who are so doomed they're already dead, and either actively asking to be turned off or completely unbothered by the prospect, versus the actual ongoing lives of everyone else in the universe. There's no real choice to be made, just a grim but necessary task before us.

It's also worth, if we're bringing G'raha into this discussion, how G'raha actually feels about this. He got a whole scene focused on that, remember? I don't like G'raha at the best of times, but he did make a fairly relevant point here: that this isn't what people actually want when they say they want to see a departed loved one again. As nice as it would be to have one last moment with them, to say that thing he didn't say when they were alive, or to see them smile one last time, that's not actually what he wanted, that's just the soft platitude on top of the real wish: he wants them to have lived.

Living Memory isn't an embodiment of people's desires for the dead to live: it's a twisted caricature of them, a genie's corrupted wish for an afterlife to be real, paired with removing even people's ability to grieve enough to have those thoughts. It's not just G'raha's awareness of what price he had to pay to bring back the people he needed to see live that's different, or even the fact he actually succeeded: it's also the fact he was permitted the capacity to have those thoughts and feelings himself, enough to even know what he really wanted out of it.

But, of course, there's two separate questions floating around here, and not just two sides of the same one. 'It was wrong for Living Memory to exist' does not, inherently, also mean 'it was right to destroy Living Memory'. Those are two different discussions, albeit inextricably connected ones.

[Iscah]

But, of course, there's two separate questions floating around here, and not just two sides of the same one. 'It was wrong for Living Memory to exist' does not, inherently, also mean 'it was right to destroy Living Memory'. Those are two different discussions, albeit inextricably connected ones.

Indeed, but another aspect is that it's not simply an isolated question of whether to destroy it because its existence is "wrong", but whether it deserves to exist at the expense of the living.

Essentially, it's a variation of the "trolley problem", and if we do choose to sacrifice the living to keep the lights on in Living Memory then they're still only going to last until the battery runs out.

[Cleretic]

Indeed, but another aspect is that it's not simply an isolated question of whether to destroy it because its existence is "wrong", but whether it deserves to exist at the expense of the living.

Essentially, it's a variation of the "trolley problem", and if we do choose to sacrifice the living to keep the lights on in Living Memory then they're still only going to last until the battery runs out.

Agreed; I believe both of those statements, but I don't believe the second one just because because I believe the first.

If Sphene wasn't pulling the knives out, and Cahciua wasn't giving Endless approval for what we have to do, we'd have sort of a 'SeaWorld orca program' problem: the act of making it was wrong and horrible, but once it existed it would then be even worse to just kill it. (And yes, I am proud of finding a theme park metaphor for Living Memory.) It's Sphene and Cahciua that make the road we land on okay, or at least justified, not the existence of Living Memory itself.

EDIT:

I do agree on those points. I would have hoped that Cahciua more firmently states that this is actually something she's discussed with all the residents and that it's ok to shut them down. But from what we see is people who really are enjoying their lives and we are just inserting our own beliefs onto them. Yes it's a difficult decision, yes Sphene has delivered and ultimatum, we have to do this. But I was firmently hoping atleast someone, either Erenville or G'raha Tia who is somewhat of an expert on dimensional things would at bare minimum entertain an alternative option or suggest somehting else. And I get there ISN'T an alternative option, Krile's parents and Cahciua say this, but I would still hope G'raha at the ery least try and find a solution. He quite literally had no purpose being with us.

I get the want for a counter-voice in something like this; it can be hard to believe an argument you only hear one side of. It's why I think Fandaniel (both Amon and Hermes) is the saving grace of Emet-Selch's story, because his very existence poking holes in it lets me believe that the Ancients were actually real.

But I also don't know if it would necessarily help here; the story of Living Memory is ultimately the one of us having to put an end to the Endless. A third option doesn't help that; it weakens it, as it either becomes something we could just not do, or something we could have averted.

[Kirutsuki]

You're conflating two separate things here.

Yea I had more to say to that point, but I kind of realized that it would deviate from the point too much.
But what you gotta understand is that Cahciua is from the source, so ofcourse she thinks it's natural for the dead to go the the lifestream.
But that isn't necessarily what the Alexandrians believe, we barely know what the Alexandrians think of the system in the first place.

[Alleo]

Here, our choice is between prolonging the existence of these people who are so doomed they're already dead, and either actively asking to be turned off or completely unbothered by the prospect, versus the actual ongoing lives of everyone else in the universe. There's no real choice to be made, just a grim but necessary task before us.

And at the end keeping them "alive" would have just postponed their destruction anyway, since there is no unlimited power source for them. So bascially its just: End them now when the sacrificies are still low or end them when everyone else in the universe is death on top.

4.) Emet Selch was a racist.

While you are right, that Emet Selch thought we really weren't alive, it was because he thought we were inferior. His whole talk about how we're "insects" mirrored similar views that people have used to justify genocide in real life. Since even if our souls were less dense than his, we still had souls. We were still alive based on all definitions of life, in universe.

Being tempered aside I think he also wanted to believe that we are inferior because it would make it easier to just destroy all these shards and cause all these conflicts on the source. It would be a bit strange for him to sire children with people from the source if he truly believed us to be not alive.

Anyway the Ascians have always planned to sacrifice the remaining people on the source after everything is fully rejoined so genocide was always on the menu.

In the end the NPCs in living memories are bascially stuck in a neverending dream, where most cant even leave the zone they are assigned to and have to live through the same stuff again and again. One of the children even says that he has seen that performance 50 times and that it bores him. A lot of the stuff is also not working anymore and a lot of the memories are stored because they are missing the energy to keep them out the whole time. So these people are bascially at the whim of the system and can be locked away for decades/centuries and they know all of this and still dont really care. They are not angry about it. Just as not a single one react in any way when the world around them starts to turn off. For the whole times the only ones truly feeling at least a bit alive where the ones we had a personal connection to. And even those where all like: Yeah please delete us. Even Otis, who swore to protect his country.

[Bright-Flower]

I don't think the Emet comparison really holds water. If you look at it on a surface level sure you can seen parallels but that requires looking at the differing circumstances between sundered life and living memory.

When doing the side quests, even these people we interact with that don't want to go yet feel like lost souls, ghosts clinging to some unfinished business and peacefully passing on once we resolve it for them. I know they aren't actually ghosts but that's what they feel like in how they act and speak. Ghosts that just need a final act of kindness to move on.

Even Otis, who swore to protect his country.

For Otis this is probably made much easier because his country still exists. Living Memory is not the nation and people of alexandria. It's just the uploaded memories of the dead. The people are still alive and well, and with their land fused onto the Source and with the potential to even leave the bubble if they want, and not being held to task for what happened with Sphene and Zarool Ja, all in all have it pretty good right now.