What would you change to improve Dawntrail’s MSQ writing?

[aTanpopo]

There’s a lot of talk about how terrible the reception of the MSQ this expansion has been, I even wrote a thread about my complaints myself when I joined up, but something that’s been on my mind over the last couple of days is how could it have been better overall? I think it’s fundamentally flawed- you can’t just rewrite a few bits here and there because the pacing is off in a lot of parts, but I’m curious to see how the community feels the story could have been written to make the experience more enjoyable for them. Also hope it’s a bit more than just “less Wuk Lamat”, because sure that is a big part of the problem, but I want to know what would you want instead? If you wanted more time for other characters, what would you have wanted to be explored in their storylines? Do you think any characters should have been written/characterised differently?

I’ll start with my own thoughts, splitting it into first and second halves of the story:

Part 1: The Rite of Succession
First, include other members of our party with the Rite more. Erenville could have helped teach Wuk Lamat about catching an Alpaca (it’s literally his job) and the twins could have contributed way more to helping the Hanu with their crops (you have an entry on Alphinaud in the codex that literally tells you he studied aetherology at the Studium) just to field a couple of examples. There’s no reason why the story couldn’t have told us about the cultures of the different areas we visited alongside this, but having everyone split off and leave you to just follow Wuk Lamat around whilst the WoL clues her in on what to do every now again left everyone who was invited to “help” with the challenge to the throne do… not much, is kind of sloppy.

Krile also could have had more opportunities to be actively trying to trace her grandfather’s steps and find out what specifically he was doing in Tural. We don’t really see much of this (even though it was the biggest reason she even decided to come and assist Wuk Lamat in the first place) until we reach the gate after the Rite is over and we don’t get to see Krile actively asking around about her grandfather that much (if at all). All we find out is eventually Gulool Ja Ja, Ketennram and Galuf found the gate to the city, but I feel there should have been more moments for us to find out about the traveling around and research that had to be done to actually find it in the first place. I feel like a recurring problem in Dawntrail is that character development moments/storylines feel rushed- being concluded in a couple of cutscenes when it could have had more of a lead up if those involved just had more screen time.

Wuk Lamat had her little pep talk about being able to rely on others a little too early imo, and if there were more chances for the party to be involved in helping her throughout the Rite I think it could, again, have had more of a lead up to her having some change in her personality. Show her actively learning from her friends- they seem to do it with Koana, who has development fueled by looking at how others around him are acting and making him realise the flaws in his approach/vision of Tural. I got this strange disconnect around the middle of the story when I realised how Wuk Lamat is treating the WoL like her best friend in the world when we only just met, and that feeling only intensified when Sphene gets introduced later. But she isn’t shown to care much at all about the thoughts and feelings of her actual friends and family- she will try and understand the ins and outs of every civilisation we visit, but won’t take time to try and understand much about the pros and cons of both of her brothers’ views (and don’t even get me started on how she treats Erenville come the second half of the story). It’s all extremely surface level and going from previous expansions, which had a big focus on the philosophical elements of the rights and wrongs of what people will do for the people they care about, to this is jarringly different.

Part 2: Sphene, Zoraal Ja & Alexandria
The main takeaway from the second half of the story for me is that Sphene is introduced way too late for me to really care about her as a major antagonist. If she had been hinted to earlier, maybe that would have changed, but her late arrival coupled with my limited knowledge of FF9 left me feeling pretty indifferent to the last 2 areas.

Shaaloni was really enjoyable, I think it served as a good setup for heading into Heritage Found. You start off expecting to go and visit Erenville’s home, but then it turns into a world ending threat. As much as I see people complain about Wuk Lamat’s everlasting presence in you finding Namika’s bracelet, I think that again leads well into you having a few more emotional ties to “what the hell is happening inside that dome?” Unfortunately it’s not really capitalised on.

A lot of people have been saying Krile and Erenville should have been the main focus of the second half of the story and I 1000% agree. Shifting the focus away from them and onto Wuk Lamat’s quest to kill her brother wasn’t satisfying at all for me. What was worse was how no one seemed to care that much for Erenville having to go through losing his hometown and not knowing if his Mother was safe or not. It was a major plot point, until it wasn’t and was sidelined for Sphene. Again, I wanted to be invested in Sphene but if you give me a choice between a storyline that has been building since the beginning of the expansion and a random suspicious woman who appears like 75% of the way through the game, I’m gonna pick the first option. I would have hoped for Heritage Found to be more focused on first finding Cahcuia, then gaining access to Solution 9 and working together with Cahcuia and Oblivion to learn more about Sphene, Zoraal Ja and Alexandria as a whole. The scions could have been way more involved in this investigation, with Krile, G’raha and Y’shtola leading.

There should have been a lot more interaction between Erenville and Cahcuia- I mean it's been 3 years for him since he left for Sharlyan from what we’re told, but for his mother it would have been 33 years from the dome time shenanigans. This would not only give us a chance to learn about the area and life in Alexandria, but also for us to learn more about Cahcuia herself. She mentions how she loved traveling with Gulool Ja Ja, but we don’t get to hear much about what that actually involved. When we enter Solution 9, Cahcuia asks us (and Erenville) about what adventures we’ve been having, but we don’t actually get to tell her about the journey. We know Cahcuia was at least a part of sealing away Valigarmanda (she’s on the memorial) and the peace BBQ between the Mamool Ja and Hrothgar in Yak T’el (she’s in the echo flashback), both of which are parallels to our own journey which could have made for good conversation. Also having a scene where Erenville can actually tell his mother about us discovering the City of Gold and it having some kind of emotional pay off, instead of an offhand comment that isn’t followed up on. Having an actual scene where Erenville can say “Hey I found the City of Gold, do you count me as a “true explorer” now? Can we actually finally go on an adventure together?” followed later by no, she’s dead, would have crushed me. Even them speedrunning that plot point in the last 5 minutes of the final area hit me pretty hard, but it could have been better if they actually got time to show off the relationship between the two of them.

The same goes for Krile, she should have had more time to learn about her birth parent’s involvement in Alexandria and its technology. Also not forgetting about being told her earring was a USB and actually analysing it early on instead of 5 mins before going to the final zone. She wanted to go on this adventure to be helpful to us, so make her feel integral to the storyline. More time on screen for her would have made meeting her parents in Living Memory more hard hitting- being able to say something like “I’ve heard so much about you (but I also know nothing about you on a personal level)” would have been a nice touch.

Finally, touching on Zoraal Ja and Living Memory, I think I would have personally swapped around “main antagonists” and have Zoraal Ja be the final boss instead of Sphene. Fight her before, in Everkeep. Have it so that after her defeat, Zoraal Ja wants to use Sphene’s endless project to take all the souls and energies in Living Memory and beyond to supercharge his conquest and make him some unstoppable creature (who would never have lost to his father). We have to turn off the terminals not to try and weaken his resolve, but so the people there can return to the aetherial sea instead of being devoured up by Zoraal Ja and denied a dignified death. As much as I like the trials for both Zoraal Ja and Sphene, the story for the final zone just didn’t grab me. I would have felt more motivated to take down someone introduced at the start of the expansion, who we have watched deteriorate, over someone who the game (Wuk Lamat) has just told me to pay attention to. This would also make there be some actual pay off to shutting down the terminals, since doing so didn’t make Sphene even slightly less motivated to wipe out other universes for energy like Cahcuia said it would.

So, those are my thoughts, I’m curious how other people would change things for the better. I am still looking forward to where the story will go in the future, not sure how they can turn it around for the better but I would like to see them take a good shot at it. Here’s to the start of the raid story on Tuesday starting the trend.

[Lyth]

Daichi Hiroi just needs to know that he is writing interactive fiction, not a play for his old theatre company.

That means player involvement and player engagement. Don't treat the players like passive spectators for a proxy main character. Throw in player choices, ask them what they think (even if it's only to crack a joke or offer an insight based off of completed optional content). Convince your players to 'clothe themselves in the fiction,' as Ishikawa put it. She understood this better than anyone else, which is why prior expansions were so memorable.

[Midare]

Daichi Hiroi just needs to know that he is writing interactive fiction, not a play for his old theatre company.

That means player involvement and player engagement. Don't treat the players like passive spectators for a proxy main character. Throw in player choices, ask them what they think (even if it's only to crack a joke or offer an insight based off of completed optional content). Convince your players to 'clothe themselves in the fiction,' as Ishikawa put it. She understood this better than anyone else, which is why prior expansions were so memorable.

Honestly, I don't think this is a problem.

The WoL was a sidekick to Hien during the second half of Stormblood and, as I understand it, Hien is liked by a big part of the playerbase.
On the other hand, with all the issues all the other characters had (Bakool Ja Ja suddenly changing gears from one scene to the other, the rather subtle hint to Zoraal Ja's drive, Koana's sister complex), everyone but the main character we're supposed to be a sidekick for seems more interesting and seem to actually develop as a character, albeit at a poorly planned pace seemingly.

Meanwhile, Poochie just keeps being the oh so quirky character the universe revolves around and only needs to lift a finger to get her way, or rather, use us to get her way and she's just not a compelling character or even entertaining to see.

[Voidmage]

Honestly, I don't think this is a problem.

The WoL was a sidekick to Hien during the second half of Stormblood and, as I understand it, Hien is liked by a big part of the playerbase.
On the other hand, with all the issues all the other characters had (Bakool Ja Ja suddenly changing gears from one scene to the other, the rather subtle hint to Zoraal Ja's drive, Koana's sister complex), everyone but the main character we're supposed to be a sidekick for seems more interesting and seem to actually develop as a character, albeit at a poorly planned pace seemingly.

Meanwhile, Poochie just keeps being the oh so quirky character the universe revolves around and only needs to lift a finger to get her way, or rather, use us to get her way and she's just not a compelling character or even entertaining to see.

Hien was the protagonist together with Lyse, we were the main character.
Hien had actual character grows, he asn't in our face the whole expansion and didn't say shonen stuff all the time.
If he had the same suffocating screentime as Wuk lamat, people would hate him also.

As the main character we still had a part in the story. Zenos was OUR enemy first and foremost, it was personal. The Azem steppe had US go through the trials as well and integrated us in the battle and WE fought Susanoo.
In Dawntrail we have the solo fight against Papa JaJa and thats it, nothing more. Even our time with Erenville is more or less about Wuk Lamat.
We have no agency in the plot and weren't even needed anyway. Valigarmanda was weakend and the game went out of it's way to not say that we as a godslayer did more then the others.

There is being a sidekick for some time and there is being the camera for another character the whole expansion. I felt as unneded as a birthday cake in a diabetes meeting.

I would change the whole story so that we go adventuring first and foremost and only meet the canditates (all of them) from time to time and interacting.
Whooping Bakool JaJa, putting Zerool Ja down a bit and let that be motivation for them. No Wuk Lamat there needed to kickstart the character events of them.

Let us meet Sphene far earlier, give Otis more screentime and let him come with us to the final zone.
Let Krile have an actuall story arc.

Wuk Lamat can be a character of herself, struggling and overcoming her weaknesses with Alphinaud and Alisae. We don't need to be there for that the entire time.

[Lusarae]

Hien was the protagonist together with Lyse, we were the main character.
Hien had actual character grows, he asn't in our face the whole expansion and didn't say shonen stuff all the time.
If he had the same suffocating screentime as Wuk lamat, people would hate him also.

<snipped for character limit>

Let us meet Sphene far earlier, give Otis more screentime and let him come with us to the final zone.
Let Krile have an actuall story arc.

Wuk Lamat can be a character of herself, struggling and overcoming her weaknesses with Alphinaud and Alisae. We don't need to be there for that the entire time.

I agree with most of this. The only thing I'd change is that we should be disqualified from being a champion to anyone. Considering we're like... a godslayer and just came back from traveling to the end of the universe to save all of existence. Handing the reins to the twins and watching them struggle against Thancred & Uri would have been entertaining. Meanwhile Krile and Erenville should have been our main companions. We should have been able to meet Cauchia earlier, MUCH earlier and develop a relationship with her. Nana should have retired peacefully and never been involved in the story past her introduction so that the zone actually becomes more about Erenville and not Wuk Lamat's side character.

Having us do our own things in the zone, seeing the trials from an outside perspective... would have been refreshing. Wuk Lamat is the one who grew up in these lands. Why the hell are we educating her about the cultures and customs? The game should be educating US as the WoL these things. While she goes to each place (mostly offscreen) and puts her combined native experience with some of the scions to use. I'd respect her more as a character if she actually did things without me having to carry her and do literally everything while I get none of the credit.

Sphene should have been our relationship, not Wuk Lamats. Period.

As for the overall pacing of the story? They need to stop compensating for cut scene skippers or people who want to "take an extremely long break" inbetween play sessions. The journal exists for a reason. You either experience the story or you don't. Stop wasting time on endless recaps on recaps like I have the attention span of a goldfish. Instead, use this newly acquired time to actually flesh out interesting characters (literally anyone but Wuk Lamat) or let us do fun gameplay things.

[Souljacker]

Honestly, I don't think this is a problem.
The WoL was a sidekick to Hien during the second half of Stormblood and, as I understand it, Hien is liked by a big part of the playerbase.

Yea, I disliked Hien as well. I remember distinctly him telling me, "I want to stay and learn about this misogynistic culture", and me literally saying to my screen, "Well I fucking don't, let's move on!". And then skipping literally every scene in that forced interaction.

So Hien ticks the boxes for a lot of players that equally would reject a character like Wuk Lamat... but I don't think that's the only thing at play here. I also found the whole "Here, hold my stuff because I can't be trusted to carry a wool basket or a jacket but I'm TOTALLY READY to lead a whole ass nation!" a completely uncompelling reason for us even being here.

I'm still struggling to even get through the storyline, it's so bland I have no desire to log in.

[ForteNightshade]

Honestly, I don't think this is a problem.

The WoL was a sidekick to Hien during the second half of Stormblood and, as I understand it, Hien is liked by a big part of the playerbase.
On the other hand, with all the issues all the other characters had (Bakool Ja Ja suddenly changing gears from one scene to the other, the rather subtle hint to Zoraal Ja's drive, Koana's sister complex), everyone but the main character we're supposed to be a sidekick for seems more interesting and seem to actually develop as a character, albeit at a poorly planned pace seemingly.

Meanwhile, Poochie just keeps being the oh so quirky character the universe revolves around and only needs to lift a finger to get her way, or rather, use us to get her way and she's just not a compelling character or even entertaining to see.

We weren't so much a side kick but more an ensemble cast. Think Friends or Seinfeld. There were episodes or whole arcs which clearly favored one or two characters but rarely was any of the cast made completely irrelevant. Neither Hien nor Lyse could have accomplished what they did without us nor did they hog the spotlight. The big issue with Wuk Lamat outside of simply poor writing is she's exhaustively front and center for everything.

Even when we move on to a new plot arc, the narrative is still desperately looking for ways to shove her back into focus. Meanwhile, our character is completely and utterly useless. We do absolutely nothing to move the story forward, and frankly, could be replaced by literal any random NPC with minimal impact. What makes this worse is the few dialogue prompts on offer force us to praise Wuk Lamat. We're not even given the usual "..." because the writer can't seem to stop swooning over his character. Heck, if we opt not to call her Lama'ty, Krile literally gaslights us by insisting we were just too caught off guard but would love to call her Lama'ty. It's downright nauseating how much of a black hole sue Wuk is.

[Zakuyia]

Honestly, I don't think this is a problem.

The WoL was a sidekick to Hien during the second half of Stormblood and, as I understand it, Hien is liked by a big part of the playerbase.
On the other hand, with all the issues all the other characters had (Bakool Ja Ja suddenly changing gears from one scene to the other, the rather subtle hint to Zoraal Ja's drive, Koana's sister complex), everyone but the main character we're supposed to be a sidekick for seems more interesting and seem to actually develop as a character, albeit at a poorly planned pace seemingly.

Meanwhile, Poochie just keeps being the oh so quirky character the universe revolves around and only needs to lift a finger to get her way, or rather, use us to get her way and she's just not a compelling character or even entertaining to see.

Thats true sane with hildebrand but we at least was doing something not being set pieces

[AngaratoSvartberg]

what I would change is the random moments we have alone with wuk lamat.
Instead of her telling you again that she loves her people and she's gonna save them and she wants peace for the 5th time.
let her confide in you, let her ask you about YOU. she has the warrior of light here. the savior of the star. who's gone through constant struggle and problems. and she doesnt seem to give a single shit about you or the knowledge you possess. she doesnt ask about your stories. she doesnt ask for your advice she doesnt ask for how you handled things or your loss or your hardships.

what i loved about Venat is that she was essentially a god to us. superior in every way. but she asked about us, she cared about us, our story our prowess. she treated us more like a human being than wuk lamat does. we're just back to being ARR wol. just a weapon. point us at the enemy and go.

we didnt even spar with her. she cares about everyone else she wants to get to know everyone else except us.

[TaleraRistain]

what i loved about Venat is that she was essentially a god to us. superior in every way. but she asked about us, she cared about us, our story our prowess. she treated us more like a human being than wuk lamat does. we're just back to being ARR wol. just a weapon. point us at the enemy and go.

I've seen that said about us with previous expansions but I have never felt so much like a weapon just pointed at things as this expansion. We, the Scions, and Erenville weren't allowed to be real, actual people because everything had to be about Wuk Lamat and the rest of us only mattered as her cheerleading squad. We couldn't offer her any help. We couldn't share any experiences. We couldn't give any insights. She already knew everything to do exactly and the rest of us could just nod along.

The Scions may often see eye to eye but there is at least discussion and different inputs and consideration for everyone in the group so it feels like an actual discussion where everyone is heard. That was all unfortunately lacking here. The only time I felt it was present was when we were alone with other characters, which wasn't often.