Meleewalker to Meleetrail

[Ruminous]

So then Physrange becomes the best and then people complain about that instead.

One: people will always find something to complain about. That's how people are.

Two: phys ranged wont suddenly 'become the best' if they're allowed to be competitive with the melee and casters. Mechanics that define the job will say who is best and who is not, and if yours doesn't align with the situation, then you're not the best. Right now, even if the boss favors a phys ranged job's mechanics, it's still the inferior choice because simply existing as a phys ranged means you do less damage because of an antiquated system that hasn't been updated to the current era.

Third: Why should playing that role punish the player for that choice? To know that your best effort is a half-assed effort of someone else? Because you've talked about maximizing samurai, would it be fun to do that and know that some floor tanking dragoon did more than you because they could manage to push buttons? Doesn't make for a fun time when your effort isn't rewarded. For the phys ranged, it really isn't right now. We want to be competitive and useful, not relegated to token role or completely cut out because our only worthwhile contribution to the raid is a groupwide damage reduction. Like sure, fantastic, but even a caster gets one that works specifically for magic damage, which a majority of the killer attacks are magic based.

[Galvuu]

Two: phys ranged wont suddenly 'become the best' if they're allowed to be competitive with the melee and casters. Mechanics that define the job will say who is best and who is not, and if yours doesn't align with the situation, then you're not the best. Right now, even if the boss favors a phys ranged job's mechanics, it's still the inferior choice because simply existing as a phys ranged means you do less damage because of an antiquated system that hasn't been updated to the current era.

What do you even mean by "the mechanics that define the job"? Just in terms of pure dps, no matter how people want to paint this, physical ranged are immune to almost any interference. Or, perhaps better put, if anything interferes with a physical ranged job's dps output, that mechanic will interfere with casters and melee just as much. Likely, it will interfere more.
It's obvious the balance is whack right now and both casters and physical ranged need a damage boost, but this trend of pretending we play in some vacuum where simultaneously having free mobility and range doesn't help in the slightest is just disingenuous. Especially with our current NM raids, floors 2 and 3 pose seriously uptime challenges to melees and casters alike.
For better or worse, in the history of FFXIV, there has never been a time where the best comps don't have at least one physical ranged job and one melee job. Even double caster or triple melee have physical ranged presence. This is true right now, and the 3rd, 4th and 5th jobs with highest clear rates are physical ranged (well, one is SMN, but SMN is a physical ranged job in a caster disguise). This whole talk of "might as well replace the physical ranged with another melee/caster" is dishonest, and detracts from actual problems, be it the poor state of balance- which I'm not discounting- or gameplay issues (BRD having sync issues that can be fixed by something as simple as adding a damned Apex Arrow charge is inexcusable imho).

(Also, your first point isn't exactly constructive- this whole thread could be labelled as such, but that does nothing to address the actual current problems)

[Asari5]

lets assume they do the same amount of dmg... what would the melees get to balance the shorter range?

and also there are a lot of phys range around in the game arent there? the role cant be that bad?

[Ruminous]

snip

The first point was an off the cuff statement. I'll stay focused on the point.

Mechanics that defines the job... So, that would be uptime or burst focused. Ranged, or melee, they fall into those categories.

I did not once pretend that mobility isn't a benefit, because being able to move and continue your rotation can be helpful. However, the benefits are rarely worth doing considerably less damage. I'm glad we can agree the balance of classes is not great, because that's been my entire point. The balance is awful.. 10-20% less dps for existing than even jobs that buff is not fun.

Yes, floors 2 and 3 have some challenges. Are they 10-20% less dps challenges? Absolutely not, especially when powerful ranged attacks and gap closers exist for melee, and instant cast abilities exist for casters. As time goes on and practice is had, you can figure out what you can and can't get away with to maximize the time you're doing something vs the time you're not. We already talked about some of Omega's mechanics, so you learned how to clear the fight on a job that has a lot of forced standing still to clear.

Just because phys ranged has had a presence in clears, doesn't mean the roles can and haven't been excluded. Abyssos had that issue and their solution was to nerf the boss health by 1%. Fixing the boss's health is a lot easier than looking at underperforming jobs and making them better unless they're just that drastically bad.

But my complaint with phys ranged: It doesn't contribute as much as it should and should contribute more. Allow them to be more competitive and not relegated to token 1% party buff. Does bard/dancer/machinist need to be at the top of the charts? Absolutely not. But let's not pretend that the gap couldn't be a bit more narrow now. We're both in agreement that the current balance is completely awful. Hell I still think black mage should be farther ahead compared to where it is now compared to picto, especially since picto brings more to the table than black mage right now. It's literally the same argument.

Maybe they'll fix the class balance in 7.05, but I'm not holding my breath. Summoner right now has got it the worst since other casters exist and bring better tools to the plate.

[Galvuu]

snip.

I mean... this is a post-ShB/EW world. Every job is 2-min burst focused.
I'm not even disparaging the rest of what you said, I'm just raising the point that SE is forcing every job into A 2-min burst archetype (which is why people have been dissatisfied with homogenization).

Also, most melee jobs cannot flex when they use their ranged abilities. RPR has to to Communio/Perfection at a certain point in their burst. It's not a real mobility tool.
The P8S door boss problem wasn't a "phys ranged problem". It was a job-balance problem, one of which was MCH. But PLD, RDM and, to a much lesser extent, RPR were also problematic. I, unfortunately, dealt with this absolute nonsense since I progged P8S week 1, and I felt the dps issues when those jobs were in the comp- having PLD/WAR/MCH/RPR was awful because beating the enrage because 50-50 at best.
And SMN is always going to be popular in virtue of being basically auto-play with a revive. It's the ultimate "focus on mechanics and ignore rotation" job. It's always been hyper-popular for prog since the EW revision for this very reason.

I know it probably sounds like I'm being abrasive and going after everything you're saying (and, in a way, I guess I am), but sometimes people post topics with a very hyperbolic wording that ends up being a half-truth and then obscure the real problems while also antagonizing other people. Physical ranged were vastly overtaxed in EW where melee uptime was not a concern (which is also part of the reason why EW balance was one of the worst ever in Abyssos), but DT is shaping to be a different landscape.
I still posit ranged and casters need help, but we can't start from a premise of "melee uptime is free" when it's looking like it's not (well, in your defense, you didn't actually say this, but I do think you're overestimating how many tools most melee and caster jobs have at their disposal to deal with some of this mechanical nonsense).

[Supersnow845]

lets assume they do the same amount of dmg... what would the melees get to balance the shorter range?

and also there are a lot of phys range around in the game arent there? the role cant be that bad?

Phys ranged is right up with there with healers for “role is only hanging on by virtue of the 1% buff”, it’s always the last DPS role to fill in a party so it’s definitely not in a healthy spot

[MaaryZeleste]

You're never bringing three melee to a party, you can bring triple ranged and it's fine, what do you people want exactly? Triple ranged being standard? Melee being so weak that you bring quad ranged?

[Lanvaldear]

lets assume they do the same amount of dmg... what would the melees get to balance the shorter range?

and also there are a lot of phys range around in the game arent there? the role cant be that bad?

Melee are suppose to do more damage in a sim because in an actual encounter, they're expected to have downtime to compensate. The issue is is that Squeenix hasn't made a fight with downtime (Unless you count times when the boss isn't even targetable for no apparent reason.. Talking to you P8SP2) since Heavensward. So Ranged lose their only advantage they have. Coupled with cast times, it makes playing cDPS abysmal. Its LOOKING like this might change with AAC (or whatever they're calling it) Savage due to smaller hit boxes and more erratic mechanics. Which is a good thing, and why I mentioned that it may be too early to tell.

[Lanvaldear]

You're never bringing three melee to a party, you can bring triple ranged and it's fine, what do you people want exactly? Triple ranged being standard? Melee being so weak that you bring quad ranged?

Last expansion, with very few exceptions, it was better to bring 3 melee and 1 ranged. That ranged being blackmage. The 1% buff from bring a pranged wasn't worth it until the very end of the xpac when BRD caught back up after rDPS scaling. So I guess at that point, it will be a taste of their own medicine?

[Supersnow845]

I love how when people go “hey maybe phys ranged shouldn’t be so bad the only reason you even bring them is an arbitrary 1% buff for bringing the role even though at least one of them is quite complex” the immediate response is “oh so you want triple physical ranged comps”

No people are just sick of phys ranged holding on by nothing more than an invisible buff they don’t even actively contribute to and melee just arbitrarily doing more damage because they exist when it’s meant to compensate for downtime that they never put in the game