Difficulty of normal content.

[AmiableApkallu]

The problem with the difficulty on normal fights as I see it is:
-Use and abuse of non standard telegraphs.
-Nasty mechanic overlaps, stuff you would see on extreme and harder fights.
-Mechs resolving too quickly for the mental capacity they demand to process.
-One too many "catch this!" mech (mechs that have you running around like headless chicken evading seemingly random patterns).

I haven't yet done the new raids, but…

• The telegraphs in Dawntrail are actually quite good. The last time I saw a non-standard telegraph would have been... some optional ARR dungeon?
• Overlapping mechanics in normal fights has been a thing since at least Stormblood.

I'm reminded of a philosophy from the training of surgeons: "See one, do one, teach one." See a mechanic played out once. Do the mechanic yourself once. Teach the mechanic to someone else once (or, be prepared to, anyway). This approach has carried me through Dawntrail just fine.

Not getting a mechanic correct on the first try is fine. Party wipes are fine. But instead of just trying to power through and do, actually take a moment first to see. The hallmarks of a normal mode fight — that is, to say, "casual" content — are that (1) it's obvious how you failed to recognize a telegraph and thus failed the mechanic, and (2) as Supersnow said, you don't need to strategize with the rest of the party to do it correctly.

[Kitkat]

I'm reminded of a philosophy from the training of surgeons: "See one, do one, teach one." See a mechanic played out once. Do the mechanic yourself once. Teach the mechanic to someone else once (or, be prepared to, anyway). This approach has carried me through Dawntrail just fine.

I had to quote this, as this is one of the most important points made in the entire topic so far. In 1.0 and 2.0 this was very important for various fights. I'm reminded of the first boss in the lvl 50 dungeon Amdapor Keep. The demon wall that, believe it or not, many people had trouble getting past simply because they weren't geared well enough, or they weren't paying attention to mechanics and dying too much (which as we all know means weakness or straight out lost due to going in the pit). It was very rare at first to see many get this boss down before it was halfway across the bridge, people struggled with it until better gear was acquired and now it is trivial.


TCoB was also very punishing due to context specific mechanics at times, something many people couldn't do. This was before they came out with Savage fights. The Hard Primal fights, not to be confused with EX, just hard were daunting to some until they learned there was a pattern and could move accordingly. By the time Stormblood was ending, you were starting to see many harder fights in 'normal content' being phased out. Shadowbringers brought in the numerous high raid damage mechanics, which as far as I'm concerned is a cheap difficulty hurdle on the developments end. Seeing them bring in actual mechanics where getting hit too much, or taking too many of a type of mechanic does now affect you causing you to want to learn how to avoid it. If anything, dungeons should be a stepping stone to learning mechanics that will show up in harder fights and make it very clear if you don't learn them, you will die or will adversely affect the rest of the team. This helps people learn if they are fine with just being casual on the game, or if they should desire to really see how punishing mechanics can be and strive to go into EX/Savage without having a crippling difference in difficulty.

[Kiurt]

Wasn't Yoship the one saying that he was falling asleep in his dungeon runs ?

I thought the whole point of these threads was => Make MSQ easier, optionnal content harder (Side dungeons, raids, side trials...) ?

Most of Dawntrail content is fine. People aren't used to the basics of FFXIV. And most importantly, watching the cast bar.

Besides some gimmicks "gotcha" like breaking platforms, which kill you once but not twice, I didn't see anything that might be too hard for anyone who can actually pay attention to whats happening. Most of the mechanics can be done by following someone if you're having a hard time.

It is the FIRST day of release aswell, I don't get why people are entitled to clear content day 1.

[Jojoya]

I would say the first boss is slightly undertuned even for normal. That's not necessarily a bad thing for the first boss of an expansion but it felt like it could use a little extra.

The second boss is fine. I know groups were having a rough time this morning but most people were also going in at minimum ilvl. Once people are at 700+, the boss will feel better. I would add that the conal AoE used as players are dodging hearts could use a stronger visual. It was hard to see and trying to pick out the boss facing while dodging hearts can be difficult.

The third boss is a mess mechanically. That one needs adjustment for normal. Too many overlapping mechanics as the boss keeps jumping around.

The fourth boss is fine. I'd say that fight is the best designed for normal. It just takes a little practice when it comes to the memory game.

And before anyone comes in accusing me of being an elitist savage raider, feel free to check my logs. They aren't impressive. But apparently the ability to hit your buttons in more or less the correct order is beyond the bar for "casual."

Sorry, but that's a really crappy attitude to bring here. None of those were fights where players could get by just by hitting buttons in more or less the correct order (though the first fight came close, which is why I said I felt it could use a little something more).

Players have natural skill caps regardless of all those things you contemptuously list. That natural skill gets lowered when they are suffering from one of those conditions.

Trying to downplay your performance is pointless when the logs aren't representative of the entire player base and normal is supposed to be for the entire player base.

[Sacae]

Sorry, but that's a really crappy attitude to bring here. None of those were fights where players could get by just by hitting buttons in more or less the correct order (though the first fight came close, which is why I said I felt it could use a little something more).

Players have natural skill caps regardless of all those things you contemptuously list. That natural skill gets lowered when they are suffering from one of those conditions.

Trying to downplay your performance is pointless when the logs aren't representative of the entire player base and normal is supposed to be for the entire player base.

"Downplaying my performance?" You didn't even look at my logs. I suggest looking. You'll notice that, for nearly every expansion, there's nothing there. I don't do savage, and only rarely dip into extremes. I *am* a casual player.

The second raid fight literally has no mechanics that aren't "stand out of the bad." There aren't even that many overlapping mechanics. There's no enrage; one healer can salvage the entire run, as long as there's a tank to do their job, and the tanks can survive just fine.

Raid 3 is the toughest, imo, but the same applies, as long as a healer and tank live, you can make a comeback. And all the attacks are telegraphed, you'll die once or twice, but if you actually pay attention, you'll see what killed you. And if you don't get it, JUST ASK YOUR PARTY.

Raid 4 is perfect, great fight, no arguments there.

If your "natural skill cap" prevents you from ever, EVER getting better...then maybe it's time to just accept that some content isn't for you. WHICH IS FINE. But don't take away from the rest of us. You all had your easy expansion with Endwalker, and it bored the rest of us to tears. Dear God, I regularly tank EW dungeons and just ignore mechanics because I can get 9 vuln stacks and survive.

When the content is that easy for so long, there's no incentive to get better. These arguments you all are making now? Go look up some of the threads on Stormblood launch. We were told by your like that Shinryu would kill the game because "casuals couldn't clear an extreme-level fight." Guess what? Shinryu was never directly nerfed. And people cleared it. They got better. The same thing happened with Tsukoyomi, Nidhogg, Warrior of Light. And NONE of these were ever nerfed directly. They were outgeared later.

Which is something else people have been advising. If you can't clear on content, as in, it's just beyond your "natural skill level," wait a patch or two, and do it with better gear.

It's that simple.

[Lasciare]

A lot of players need to stop being so afraid to fail in this game. Learn and do better.

[Kazmarek]

And before anyone comes in accusing me of being an elitist savage raider, feel free to check my logs. They aren't impressive. But apparently the ability to hit your buttons in more or less the correct order is beyond the bar for "casual."

Think it's really messed up your comment previous to this got removed. Was it worded harshly? Yes. Was it wrong? No. Square enix moderation is an absolute joke.

[CinaedhVik]

If you thought the patterns were "seemingly random" OP, you weren't observing properly. This is the best tier I've ever played for normal raids, and I've been a player since ARR. Awesome music, great vibe, and fun and engaging raids. This is level 100. You don't get to just do in/out spread anymore, and you should have been clued in to that by the dungeons released with 7.0