Rework all mitigations for tanks

[Rithy255]

Dark knight is unplayable? but paladin has too much mitigations? do people realise that all the mitigation kits are very similar.

Arguably Dark Knight has some of the best mit in the game due to how TBN stacks with their mitigation kits vs just having percent mits on the short CD, Even then Dark Mind is the quickest CD, Oblation is added ontop of DRK's shared kit.

[Ryaduera]

Dark knight is unplayable? but paladin has too much mitigations? do people realise that all the mitigation kits are very similar.

Arguably Dark Knight has some of the best mit in the game due to how TBN stacks with their mitigation kits vs just having percent mits on the short CD, Even then Dark Mind is the quickest CD, Oblation is added ontop of DRK's shared kit.

I wish people would stop spreading blatantly untrue things about TBN and how it's "So good because it stacks with mits". You need actually useful mits for TBN to function as well as we pretend.

The math part 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | And a bonus to show this has persisted since EW launch.

If you don't want to read all of that, here's a tl;dr: DRK mitigations are among the worst and TBN does not make up for it even in a perfect and ideal scenario of purely magic damage. The idea that TBN is any good holds the class back from actually having decent defensive tools even when facing magic damage since the amount of raw damage they take is significantly higher than the other tanks. TBN is bad and we need to get off the copium. The math is there. TBN is not the problem, but it needs to stop being used as a crutch to its design. I'd rather see TBN removed and given actual mitigation tools than see people keep blowing its usefulness out of porportion. If you go in a dungeon as a DRK you are going in disadvantaged from the beginning.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Considering most "serious" fights use magic damage for 99% of encounters, I think it's easy to say that Dark knight has the best "different" CD, as it's 20% on a 60s, DRK falls off dramatically without Dark Mind as they would be lacking that said cooldown. Oblation is also just a "free Mitigation" which yeah 10% isn't impactful but its still something that other tanks don't have, every other CD (Other then TBN which I'll get to) is the same. Dark Mind Should have physical reduction tied to it, to be just a bit more consistent but again most fights already use magic damage, Dungeon runs aren't really that important.

TBN does gain more value with Mitigations rather then stacking a flat Mitigative CD, in theory a 40% Mit + TBN is going to have higher survivability vs a 40% mit + 15% + 15%, but this is also somewhat dependent of how much incoming damage is took... Good thing DRK can also stack a 10%, and two 20%'s if needed.

Yes going in on a dungeon on DRK isn't as easy as other tanks, but I seriously am failing to understand how people think it's a significant struggle to tank on DRK in dungeons, I've never really had issues in DT dungeons on Dark knight, I in fact feel very comfortable on dark knight, I barely feel "disadvantaged".

Am I defending Dark Knight and it's design? yes and no, I don't think TBN needs to be a damage loss for miss use, I don't think it's DM should only work for Magic damage, I also don't think oblation feels "that good" to use currently, but it's really not a weak tank defensively, it lacks a some sustain, which I don't automatically think is a bad thing, not every tank needs warrior levels of healing, I find it more fun that it's more planned then just reacting after you've been hit during casual content, Not to say i don't want or dislike sustain, but it's fine for certain jobs to have less or more.

This is also why I said "Arguably" I actually think PLD has better overall Mitigation then DRK due to how sheltron/intervention can be used at the same time, PAO existing ect, Also Guardian is in my opinion the best 40% Mitigation, but we could go into "numbers" or whatever all day I don't think it would go anywhere, because barriers and Mitigations work differently in many situations (despite having very similar impact), it's hard to reflect these calculations into actual fights.

At the end of the day I do think DRK could use with some changes to their kit, but I honestly think tanks are in need of a general change to how they work, I'd want a large scale tank design changes on all tanks Ideally.

[Tunda]

Considering most "serious" fights use magic damage for 99% of encounters, I think it's easy to say that Dark knight has the best "different" CD, as it's 20% on a 60s, DRK falls off dramatically without Dark Mind as they would be lacking that said cooldown. Oblation is also just a "free Mitigation" which yeah 10% isn't impactful but its still something that other tanks don't have, every other CD (Other then TBN which I'll get to) is the same. Dark Mind Should have physical reduction tied to it, to be just a bit more consistent but again most fights already use magic damage, Dungeon runs aren't really that important.

TBN does gain more value with Mitigations rather then stacking a flat Mitigative CD, in theory a 40% Mit + TBN is going to have higher survivability vs a 40% mit + 15% + 15%, but this is also somewhat dependent of how much incoming damage is took... Good thing DRK can also stack a 10%, and two 20%'s if needed.

Yes going in on a dungeon on DRK isn't as easy as other tanks, but I seriously am failing to understand how people think it's a significant struggle to tank on DRK in dungeons, I've never really had issues in DT dungeons on Dark knight, I in fact feel very comfortable on dark knight, I barely feel "disadvantaged".

Am I defending Dark Knight and it's design? yes and no, I don't think TBN needs to be a damage loss for miss use, I don't think it's DM should only work for Magic damage, I also don't think oblation feels "that good" to use currently, but it's really not a weak tank defensively, it lacks a some sustain, which I don't automatically think is a bad thing, not every tank needs warrior levels of healing, I find it more fun that it's more planned then just reacting after you've been hit during casual content, Not to say i don't want or dislike sustain, but it's fine for certain jobs to have less or more.

This is also why I said "Arguably" I actually think PLD has better overall Mitigation then DRK due to how sheltron/intervention can be used at the same time, PAO existing ect, Also Guardian is in my opinion the best 40% Mitigation, but we could go into "numbers" or whatever all day I don't think it would go anywhere, because barriers and Mitigations work differently in many situations (despite having very similar impact), it's hard to reflect these calculations into actual fights.

At the end of the day I do think DRK could use with some changes to their kit, but I honestly think tanks are in need of a general change to how they work, I'd want a large scale tank design changes on all tanks Ideally.

It is not fine that tank current so not balance..

It is litterally game breaking and meta shifting which no one should agree on it

Dark knight weather need overhaul or need to have clear purpose

[Ryaduera]

snip

You didn't read the math. DRK takes more damage from even magic damage than GNB and PLD over a full rotation of defensive cooldowns. The DRK falls behind in all defensive fronts. And before I hear anything else about stacking defensives with TBN, the fact that Dark Mind is 20% instead of Camo's 10% or Bulwarks 16%, after diminishing returns from those stacks the difference is in the single digits for the other tanks that also get greater ease of access to their 25s cooldowns. So maybe DRK can stack 20% with 20% with 10%, GNB PLD Without using their 90s cooldowns can do 20% with 15% with 15% and hit themselves with some health, and when tanking, the only thing that matters is the state of the tank after the damage has been received meaning if all tanks survive then the only thing that matters is how much health they have afterwards, and since PLD, WAR, and GNB can restore, they end the damage at a healthier quantity of health. TBN is only better if it would have outright killed you and I've been proving this for years. Shielding and healing have different functions being post-damage restored health and pre-damage protective health, but both are health that benefit from damage reductions all the same. The numbers are there, the logic is there. TBN just has the greater potential, but nothing to apply itself well enough to actually be any good next to the other tanks.

15%+15%+20% damage mitigation is 42.2% reduction for GNB and PLD. DRK gets 20%+20%+10% is 42.4% after diminishing returns, GNB and PLD making a difference of just .2% for even magic damage but with 1 less cooldown and their own cooldowns having better uptimes and effects. The only difference is TBN gives you extra eHP before damage and the others get it after, but the value they get after is greater than TBN offers.

All tanks in this game are ridiculous, content is basically catered to us, but DRK is the worst one and not by a small margin which makes it feel bad. Do Expert for 2 weeks on everything but DRK, then go back in with DRK in the same ilvl and you'll begin to see what I mean. DRK can do it all just fine, but the other tanks do it significantly better.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

I'm not going to debate math numbers, But my argument is Surviving outright and "not what's after" is most important Especially under high damage pressure, like I said TBN will be better in some situations but mitigation will be better in others, healing as a after fact is only important if you don't really have a healer (which things like a excog something drk has, is good at automatically healing you after heavy damage, rather then a sustained effect like PLD's which doesn't have burst healing). Thing with dark mind it's 20% and on a shorter cooldown and Oblation exists.

I already do experts on PLD, Drk and War (GNB whenever i level that), Yes Dark Knight isn't the best dungeon tank, but I feel like everyone under estimates the job because it isn't warrior where you click one button and heal automatically to full hp, Personally I like being challenged in AOE pulls and working together with a healer. I rather have fun on the job and actually think about my mitigations rather then just heal up to full with a 25 second CD that lasts 8s, I think its more fun when I'm actually cycling my mitigations.

I'm not going to debate if DRK's the "worst tank" I've not seen anyone struggle because of playing DRK I've seen people complain that it lacks sustain but also people brag about how good it is defensively, some pain points can be fixed such as giving Oblation life steal (which would be really nice to make that skill more then just a 10% mit), Dark Mind and Missionary not being magic exclusive, I'm also not even against TBN not being a damage loss here (I'm pretty neutral on that), I do think it would be nice if the job did get a bit more, but threads like this and the original post seems to think DRK is some paper defensive tank because it has less self healing and isn't as good in dungeons.

My issue is when people act like Dark knight is some sort of difficult struggle in dungeons, when to me I've not had any issues with tanking on it, even playing on white mage I've had no issues with dark knights and when I level other healers I doubt I'll have a particular issue with dark knights and if I do it will generally be because they're not pressing cooldowns.

[Tunda]

I'm not going to debate math numbers, But my argument is Surviving outright and "not what's after" is most important Especially under high damage pressure, like I said TBN will be better in some situations but mitigation will be better in others, healing as a after fact is only important if you don't really have a healer (which things like a excog something drk has, is good at automatically healing you after heavy damage, rather then a sustained effect like PLD's which doesn't have burst healing). Thing with dark mind it's 20% and on a shorter cooldown and Oblation exists.

I already do experts on PLD, Drk and War (GNB whenever i level that), Yes Dark Knight isn't the best dungeon tank, but I feel like everyone under estimates the job because it isn't warrior where you click one button and heal automatically to full hp, Personally I like being challenged in AOE pulls and working together with a healer. I rather have fun on the job and actually think about my mitigations rather then just heal up to full with a 25 second CD that lasts 8s, I think its more fun when I'm actually cycling my mitigations.

I'm not going to debate if DRK's the "worst tank" I've not seen anyone struggle because of playing DRK I've seen people complain that it lacks sustain but also people brag about how good it is defensively, some pain points can be fixed such as giving Oblation life steal (which would be really nice to make that skill more then just a 10% mit), Dark Mind and Missionary not being magic exclusive, I'm also not even against TBN not being a damage loss here (I'm pretty neutral on that), I do think it would be nice if the job did get a bit more, but threads like this and the original post seems to think DRK is some paper defensive tank because it has less self healing and isn't as good in dungeons.

My issue is when people act like Dark knight is some sort of difficult struggle in dungeons, when to me I've not had any issues with tanking on it, even playing on white mage I've had no issues with dark knights and when I level other healers I doubt I'll have a particular issue with dark knights and if I do it will generally be because they're not pressing cooldowns.

You call it challenge we call it struggle

They job is underwhelming we didn't ask to be warrior
And it is not OK that warrior broke the tank meta
But at least whether dark can be "tank" with mitigations like other tanks
Or "off-tank"
Which is focusing more toward damage

But now even if you are happy and enjoying yourself playing the job that doesn't mean that the job in ok state

It require more work to be as tanky as other tanks or as damage tank with less mitigation

[Ryaduera]

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I think a lot of people get hung up here in the discussion because of the games design. Every tank can clear the content, being able to do it is not what defines good or bad. Every job can clear any content, it's more about the way the tanks compare to eachother in that design space. The main issue tanks have in this game is that the tank with the greatest DPS will be the most desirable in high end content because damage is all that really matters if everyone can clear the content on any job. Every tank must be made to be tanky enough for this to be true, which means that if DRK is the least tanky then the encounter must be designed so that DRK can clear it, however this means that if the other tanks are better, they trivialize it. It's definitely a lot less of DRK is bad and a lot more of DRK suffers from bad design. And Dark Mind means that every encounter that does magic damage DRK does well in, but the issue shows back up that this still means every other tank also does it better and DRK does even worse in nonmagical damage fights. DRK is always either equal or worse than the others.

Now bring in damage, as long as DRK does good damage it will be desirable because it can clear all content, nobody really refutes DRK damage because it's easy to execute with a simple flow thanks to the DT changes.

Basically what I'm saying is if Warrior is S rank, PLD and GNB are A rank, and DRK is B rank in tanks, but all content is clearable by the B rank tank then the A and S rank tanks are always better. I make a point of never using warrior in my DRK comparisons for a few reasons, per target maths is harder to calculate consistency for in the case of BW, but also how much of an outlier it is for its abilities. DRK should be compared to the 2 middle tanks, the average, so to speak. And in this regard, it falls very flat in its abilities outside of the dungeon use case for TBN to save pugs from boss mechanics they aren't quite grasping. I had a pug in expert survive a stack mechanic solo because with the tank buster on me I dumped Ob, Reprisal, and TBN on them to keep them alive. That was pretty cool. But PLD and GNB are so much more powerful than DRK that if I were on one of them I could have just finished it off myself (I always ask the party, I am not that tank player).

If even the B tier tank can clear the content, people will only measure its worth based on the damage it can deal, and if that damage is decent people will defend it. TBN, however, is just not as good as people pretend, either they don't main DRK or DRK is the only thing they play. I'm just really sick of people saying DRK defensives are better when they are objectively and mathematically not, even after TBN is calculated into it all. It's tired, it's old, it should be merged with Oblation, remove the MP cost, and put on a 25s cd just like other tanks and the shield break should give Dark Arts which empowers a different defensive with different effects. But I never pitch this idea because people adore its 15 second cooldown despite its inferiority. TBN Breaks and now Dark Arts makes Dark Mind has 10% phys reduct, Dark Arts makes Shadowed Vigil have additional parry rate, something like that.

When working in game balance, if something is functioning fine but receiving a lot of criticism, the problem usually isn't actual balance, but design, and in this regard, DRK needs a redesign... again.

But then also there's to consider that in a game where tanks are extremely overpowered in general, that means the tank that still needs a healer is underpowered and holding back the amount of damage the content can do to challenge the other tanks. Sure, working with the healer in an effort of teamwork is good, I'd even argue healthy given the current FFXIV Healer complaints. The problem doesn't come from this, it comes from Dark Knight being the only one. It's a problem of design, not just balance. This is also why I think if we want all tanks to require healers or otherwise turned down to DRK levels of defensives, then it's an entire systemic rework and will be harder than just changing some numbers like people think, but putting DRK on the level of the other tanks actually is as simple as an adjustment of numbers.

EDIT: Actually ideally TBN would consume 5 or 10 seconds of Darkside time to give us a reason to actually have a gauge for it, on a 25s cooldown, breaking it gives Dark Arts, using Dark Mind, Shadowed Vigil, or also TBN again, give sit another effect. Just a thought.

EDIT2: Okay my brain juices got flowing at the thought and I can't help myself, here's my pitch to rework DRK defensives.

Merge TBN and Oblation into one skill, 25% max health shield for 7 seconds and 10% damage reduction for 10 seconds on a 25 second cooldown. It costs 10 seconds off your Darkside timer (that's 2.4 TNBs in a 1 minute window, you'll consume 20-30s Darkside time a minute depending on timing). When the shield breaks, you gain Dark Arts. If the shield does not break, heal for 30% of the remaining shield value.

Dark Arts empowers your next defensive ability automatically. If used with Dark Mind you gain a 100% Parry Rate for 10 seconds as well as the 20% magic damage reduction.

If you use Shadowed Vigil with Dark Arts you give yourself an effect for 15 seconds that bursts in an area around you upon expiration and lowers all hit targets damage by 10% for 10 seconds.

If you have Dark Arts and use Dark Passenger you give yourself and your party a shield with a potency equivalent to 500 heal potency that can only absorb magical damage.

If you have Dark Arts and use TBN once again you gain an additional 5% max HP shielding

Give Dark Knight an all new skill, maybe keep the name of Oblation idk, but you can only activate it while Dark Arts is available. This skill heals you for a 300 potency with a 1s cooldown, but of course, you only have 1 charge of Dark Arts at a time so it's effectively a 25s cooldown.