Rework all mitigations for tanks

[Tunda]

Rework all mitigations for tanks

they are unbalance to the point some jobs are not even playable (i mean dark knight)

there should be some what use cases for each tank mitigation...

not just ok there is paladin who has 5 mitigations..

ok why 5 not 3 not 2 not 1 ?

why 5 that can be used in the same way u can latterly choose any of them to mitigate next big attack

[Magikazam]

they are unbalance to the point some jobs are not even playable (i mean dark knight)

Even too DRK got some identity crisis and some design problem rn. It still can clear any content and is not even close to be ''unplayable''

there should be some what use cases for each tank mitigation...

not just ok there is paladin who has 5 mitigations..

ok why 5 not 3 not 2 not 1 ?

why 5 that can be used in the same way u can latterly choose any of them to mitigate next big attack

Mitigation don't work all the same and are best used in different context. It just that the way they work rarely matter in casual contents. The ammount of mitigation tank jobs get depend on the rest of their kit, Usually how they try to balance it is that the more utility and mitigation a job get, the less damage it does.

[CasterSvarog]

Personally, add in Shadowskin as a lower leveled version of TBN, and have Dark Mind increase Parry rate so it’s actually usable in dungeons.
From there bring Sole survivor back during HW leveling and have enhanced Sole survivor replace enhanced unmend, you can have it heal you when attacking whoever has the Another victim debuff.

With that you buff DRKs terrible mitigation before TBN and you get an actual upgrade at level 84.

[Conando]

Dark Knight is definitely playable on the mitigation front, it's just way more reliant on healers than the rest.

[Rithy255]

Dark knight is unplayable? but paladin has too much mitigations? do people realise that all the mitigation kits are very similar.

Arguably Dark Knight has some of the best mit in the game due to how TBN stacks with their mitigation kits vs just having percent mits on the short CD, Even then Dark Mind is the quickest CD, Oblation is added ontop of DRK's shared kit.

[Ryaduera]

Dark knight is unplayable? but paladin has too much mitigations? do people realise that all the mitigation kits are very similar.

Arguably Dark Knight has some of the best mit in the game due to how TBN stacks with their mitigation kits vs just having percent mits on the short CD, Even then Dark Mind is the quickest CD, Oblation is added ontop of DRK's shared kit.

I wish people would stop spreading blatantly untrue things about TBN and how it's "So good because it stacks with mits". You need actually useful mits for TBN to function as well as we pretend.

The math part 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | And a bonus to show this has persisted since EW launch.

If you don't want to read all of that, here's a tl;dr: DRK mitigations are among the worst and TBN does not make up for it even in a perfect and ideal scenario of purely magic damage. The idea that TBN is any good holds the class back from actually having decent defensive tools even when facing magic damage since the amount of raw damage they take is significantly higher than the other tanks. TBN is bad and we need to get off the copium. The math is there. TBN is not the problem, but it needs to stop being used as a crutch to its design. I'd rather see TBN removed and given actual mitigation tools than see people keep blowing its usefulness out of porportion. If you go in a dungeon as a DRK you are going in disadvantaged from the beginning.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Considering most "serious" fights use magic damage for 99% of encounters, I think it's easy to say that Dark knight has the best "different" CD, as it's 20% on a 60s, DRK falls off dramatically without Dark Mind as they would be lacking that said cooldown. Oblation is also just a "free Mitigation" which yeah 10% isn't impactful but its still something that other tanks don't have, every other CD (Other then TBN which I'll get to) is the same. Dark Mind Should have physical reduction tied to it, to be just a bit more consistent but again most fights already use magic damage, Dungeon runs aren't really that important.

TBN does gain more value with Mitigations rather then stacking a flat Mitigative CD, in theory a 40% Mit + TBN is going to have higher survivability vs a 40% mit + 15% + 15%, but this is also somewhat dependent of how much incoming damage is took... Good thing DRK can also stack a 10%, and two 20%'s if needed.

Yes going in on a dungeon on DRK isn't as easy as other tanks, but I seriously am failing to understand how people think it's a significant struggle to tank on DRK in dungeons, I've never really had issues in DT dungeons on Dark knight, I in fact feel very comfortable on dark knight, I barely feel "disadvantaged".

Am I defending Dark Knight and it's design? yes and no, I don't think TBN needs to be a damage loss for miss use, I don't think it's DM should only work for Magic damage, I also don't think oblation feels "that good" to use currently, but it's really not a weak tank defensively, it lacks a some sustain, which I don't automatically think is a bad thing, not every tank needs warrior levels of healing, I find it more fun that it's more planned then just reacting after you've been hit during casual content, Not to say i don't want or dislike sustain, but it's fine for certain jobs to have less or more.

This is also why I said "Arguably" I actually think PLD has better overall Mitigation then DRK due to how sheltron/intervention can be used at the same time, PAO existing ect, Also Guardian is in my opinion the best 40% Mitigation, but we could go into "numbers" or whatever all day I don't think it would go anywhere, because barriers and Mitigations work differently in many situations (despite having very similar impact), it's hard to reflect these calculations into actual fights.

At the end of the day I do think DRK could use with some changes to their kit, but I honestly think tanks are in need of a general change to how they work, I'd want a large scale tank design changes on all tanks Ideally.

[Tunda]

Considering most "serious" fights use magic damage for 99% of encounters, I think it's easy to say that Dark knight has the best "different" CD, as it's 20% on a 60s, DRK falls off dramatically without Dark Mind as they would be lacking that said cooldown. Oblation is also just a "free Mitigation" which yeah 10% isn't impactful but its still something that other tanks don't have, every other CD (Other then TBN which I'll get to) is the same. Dark Mind Should have physical reduction tied to it, to be just a bit more consistent but again most fights already use magic damage, Dungeon runs aren't really that important.

TBN does gain more value with Mitigations rather then stacking a flat Mitigative CD, in theory a 40% Mit + TBN is going to have higher survivability vs a 40% mit + 15% + 15%, but this is also somewhat dependent of how much incoming damage is took... Good thing DRK can also stack a 10%, and two 20%'s if needed.

Yes going in on a dungeon on DRK isn't as easy as other tanks, but I seriously am failing to understand how people think it's a significant struggle to tank on DRK in dungeons, I've never really had issues in DT dungeons on Dark knight, I in fact feel very comfortable on dark knight, I barely feel "disadvantaged".

Am I defending Dark Knight and it's design? yes and no, I don't think TBN needs to be a damage loss for miss use, I don't think it's DM should only work for Magic damage, I also don't think oblation feels "that good" to use currently, but it's really not a weak tank defensively, it lacks a some sustain, which I don't automatically think is a bad thing, not every tank needs warrior levels of healing, I find it more fun that it's more planned then just reacting after you've been hit during casual content, Not to say i don't want or dislike sustain, but it's fine for certain jobs to have less or more.

This is also why I said "Arguably" I actually think PLD has better overall Mitigation then DRK due to how sheltron/intervention can be used at the same time, PAO existing ect, Also Guardian is in my opinion the best 40% Mitigation, but we could go into "numbers" or whatever all day I don't think it would go anywhere, because barriers and Mitigations work differently in many situations (despite having very similar impact), it's hard to reflect these calculations into actual fights.

At the end of the day I do think DRK could use with some changes to their kit, but I honestly think tanks are in need of a general change to how they work, I'd want a large scale tank design changes on all tanks Ideally.

It is not fine that tank current so not balance..

It is litterally game breaking and meta shifting which no one should agree on it

Dark knight weather need overhaul or need to have clear purpose

[StarlessSky]

It is not fine that tank current so not balance..

It is litterally game breaking and meta shifting which no one should agree on it

Dark knight weather need overhaul or need to have clear purpose

If there's a tank that's unbalanced, it's WAR. DRK is perfectly playable in dungeons, just slightly more punishing due to a relative dearth of self sustain and TBN costing MP/losing value if it doesn't pop. With the addition of the excog on Shadowed Vigil, even soloing bosses from high health has become much less difficult—though I think that it's become borderline expected for tank kits to allow for this is indicative of how ludicrously overpowered they are compared to dungeon bosses' damage output.

IMO its survivability on typical trash pulls is about where the other tanks should be. It only feels weak because it's being compared against WAR, which has a functional invuln on nearly 33% uptime, and PLD, with Holy Sheltron and 4000-ish healing potency per minute baked into its AoE DPS rotation.

[KDSilver]

"Not playable".