Rework all mitigations for tanks

[Tunda]

Rework all mitigations for tanks

they are unbalance to the point some jobs are not even playable (i mean dark knight)

there should be some what use cases for each tank mitigation...

not just ok there is paladin who has 5 mitigations..

ok why 5 not 3 not 2 not 1 ?

why 5 that can be used in the same way u can latterly choose any of them to mitigate next big attack

[Magikazam]

they are unbalance to the point some jobs are not even playable (i mean dark knight)

Even too DRK got some identity crisis and some design problem rn. It still can clear any content and is not even close to be ''unplayable''

there should be some what use cases for each tank mitigation...

not just ok there is paladin who has 5 mitigations..

ok why 5 not 3 not 2 not 1 ?

why 5 that can be used in the same way u can latterly choose any of them to mitigate next big attack

Mitigation don't work all the same and are best used in different context. It just that the way they work rarely matter in casual contents. The ammount of mitigation tank jobs get depend on the rest of their kit, Usually how they try to balance it is that the more utility and mitigation a job get, the less damage it does.

[CasterSvarog]

Personally, add in Shadowskin as a lower leveled version of TBN, and have Dark Mind increase Parry rate so it’s actually usable in dungeons.
From there bring Sole survivor back during HW leveling and have enhanced Sole survivor replace enhanced unmend, you can have it heal you when attacking whoever has the Another victim debuff.

With that you buff DRKs terrible mitigation before TBN and you get an actual upgrade at level 84.

[Conando]

Dark Knight is definitely playable on the mitigation front, it's just way more reliant on healers than the rest.

[Rithy255]

Dark knight is unplayable? but paladin has too much mitigations? do people realise that all the mitigation kits are very similar.

Arguably Dark Knight has some of the best mit in the game due to how TBN stacks with their mitigation kits vs just having percent mits on the short CD, Even then Dark Mind is the quickest CD, Oblation is added ontop of DRK's shared kit.

[Ryaduera]

Dark knight is unplayable? but paladin has too much mitigations? do people realise that all the mitigation kits are very similar.

Arguably Dark Knight has some of the best mit in the game due to how TBN stacks with their mitigation kits vs just having percent mits on the short CD, Even then Dark Mind is the quickest CD, Oblation is added ontop of DRK's shared kit.

I wish people would stop spreading blatantly untrue things about TBN and how it's "So good because it stacks with mits". You need actually useful mits for TBN to function as well as we pretend.

The math part 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | And a bonus to show this has persisted since EW launch.

If you don't want to read all of that, here's a tl;dr: DRK mitigations are among the worst and TBN does not make up for it even in a perfect and ideal scenario of purely magic damage. The idea that TBN is any good holds the class back from actually having decent defensive tools even when facing magic damage since the amount of raw damage they take is significantly higher than the other tanks. TBN is bad and we need to get off the copium. The math is there. TBN is not the problem, but it needs to stop being used as a crutch to its design. I'd rather see TBN removed and given actual mitigation tools than see people keep blowing its usefulness out of porportion. If you go in a dungeon as a DRK you are going in disadvantaged from the beginning.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Considering most "serious" fights use magic damage for 99% of encounters, I think it's easy to say that Dark knight has the best "different" CD, as it's 20% on a 60s, DRK falls off dramatically without Dark Mind as they would be lacking that said cooldown. Oblation is also just a "free Mitigation" which yeah 10% isn't impactful but its still something that other tanks don't have, every other CD (Other then TBN which I'll get to) is the same. Dark Mind Should have physical reduction tied to it, to be just a bit more consistent but again most fights already use magic damage, Dungeon runs aren't really that important.

TBN does gain more value with Mitigations rather then stacking a flat Mitigative CD, in theory a 40% Mit + TBN is going to have higher survivability vs a 40% mit + 15% + 15%, but this is also somewhat dependent of how much incoming damage is took... Good thing DRK can also stack a 10%, and two 20%'s if needed.

Yes going in on a dungeon on DRK isn't as easy as other tanks, but I seriously am failing to understand how people think it's a significant struggle to tank on DRK in dungeons, I've never really had issues in DT dungeons on Dark knight, I in fact feel very comfortable on dark knight, I barely feel "disadvantaged".

Am I defending Dark Knight and it's design? yes and no, I don't think TBN needs to be a damage loss for miss use, I don't think it's DM should only work for Magic damage, I also don't think oblation feels "that good" to use currently, but it's really not a weak tank defensively, it lacks a some sustain, which I don't automatically think is a bad thing, not every tank needs warrior levels of healing, I find it more fun that it's more planned then just reacting after you've been hit during casual content, Not to say i don't want or dislike sustain, but it's fine for certain jobs to have less or more.

This is also why I said "Arguably" I actually think PLD has better overall Mitigation then DRK due to how sheltron/intervention can be used at the same time, PAO existing ect, Also Guardian is in my opinion the best 40% Mitigation, but we could go into "numbers" or whatever all day I don't think it would go anywhere, because barriers and Mitigations work differently in many situations (despite having very similar impact), it's hard to reflect these calculations into actual fights.

At the end of the day I do think DRK could use with some changes to their kit, but I honestly think tanks are in need of a general change to how they work, I'd want a large scale tank design changes on all tanks Ideally.

[Tunda]

Considering most "serious" fights use magic damage for 99% of encounters, I think it's easy to say that Dark knight has the best "different" CD, as it's 20% on a 60s, DRK falls off dramatically without Dark Mind as they would be lacking that said cooldown. Oblation is also just a "free Mitigation" which yeah 10% isn't impactful but its still something that other tanks don't have, every other CD (Other then TBN which I'll get to) is the same. Dark Mind Should have physical reduction tied to it, to be just a bit more consistent but again most fights already use magic damage, Dungeon runs aren't really that important.

TBN does gain more value with Mitigations rather then stacking a flat Mitigative CD, in theory a 40% Mit + TBN is going to have higher survivability vs a 40% mit + 15% + 15%, but this is also somewhat dependent of how much incoming damage is took... Good thing DRK can also stack a 10%, and two 20%'s if needed.

Yes going in on a dungeon on DRK isn't as easy as other tanks, but I seriously am failing to understand how people think it's a significant struggle to tank on DRK in dungeons, I've never really had issues in DT dungeons on Dark knight, I in fact feel very comfortable on dark knight, I barely feel "disadvantaged".

Am I defending Dark Knight and it's design? yes and no, I don't think TBN needs to be a damage loss for miss use, I don't think it's DM should only work for Magic damage, I also don't think oblation feels "that good" to use currently, but it's really not a weak tank defensively, it lacks a some sustain, which I don't automatically think is a bad thing, not every tank needs warrior levels of healing, I find it more fun that it's more planned then just reacting after you've been hit during casual content, Not to say i don't want or dislike sustain, but it's fine for certain jobs to have less or more.

This is also why I said "Arguably" I actually think PLD has better overall Mitigation then DRK due to how sheltron/intervention can be used at the same time, PAO existing ect, Also Guardian is in my opinion the best 40% Mitigation, but we could go into "numbers" or whatever all day I don't think it would go anywhere, because barriers and Mitigations work differently in many situations (despite having very similar impact), it's hard to reflect these calculations into actual fights.

At the end of the day I do think DRK could use with some changes to their kit, but I honestly think tanks are in need of a general change to how they work, I'd want a large scale tank design changes on all tanks Ideally.

It is not fine that tank current so not balance..

It is litterally game breaking and meta shifting which no one should agree on it

Dark knight weather need overhaul or need to have clear purpose

[Ryaduera]

snip

You didn't read the math. DRK takes more damage from even magic damage than GNB and PLD over a full rotation of defensive cooldowns. The DRK falls behind in all defensive fronts. And before I hear anything else about stacking defensives with TBN, the fact that Dark Mind is 20% instead of Camo's 10% or Bulwarks 16%, after diminishing returns from those stacks the difference is in the single digits for the other tanks that also get greater ease of access to their 25s cooldowns. So maybe DRK can stack 20% with 20% with 10%, GNB PLD Without using their 90s cooldowns can do 20% with 15% with 15% and hit themselves with some health, and when tanking, the only thing that matters is the state of the tank after the damage has been received meaning if all tanks survive then the only thing that matters is how much health they have afterwards, and since PLD, WAR, and GNB can restore, they end the damage at a healthier quantity of health. TBN is only better if it would have outright killed you and I've been proving this for years. Shielding and healing have different functions being post-damage restored health and pre-damage protective health, but both are health that benefit from damage reductions all the same. The numbers are there, the logic is there. TBN just has the greater potential, but nothing to apply itself well enough to actually be any good next to the other tanks.

15%+15%+20% damage mitigation is 42.2% reduction for GNB and PLD. DRK gets 20%+20%+10% is 42.4% after diminishing returns, GNB and PLD making a difference of just .2% for even magic damage but with 1 less cooldown and their own cooldowns having better uptimes and effects. The only difference is TBN gives you extra eHP before damage and the others get it after, but the value they get after is greater than TBN offers.

All tanks in this game are ridiculous, content is basically catered to us, but DRK is the worst one and not by a small margin which makes it feel bad. Do Expert for 2 weeks on everything but DRK, then go back in with DRK in the same ilvl and you'll begin to see what I mean. DRK can do it all just fine, but the other tanks do it significantly better.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

I'm not going to debate math numbers, But my argument is Surviving outright and "not what's after" is most important Especially under high damage pressure, like I said TBN will be better in some situations but mitigation will be better in others, healing as a after fact is only important if you don't really have a healer (which things like a excog something drk has, is good at automatically healing you after heavy damage, rather then a sustained effect like PLD's which doesn't have burst healing). Thing with dark mind it's 20% and on a shorter cooldown and Oblation exists.

I already do experts on PLD, Drk and War (GNB whenever i level that), Yes Dark Knight isn't the best dungeon tank, but I feel like everyone under estimates the job because it isn't warrior where you click one button and heal automatically to full hp, Personally I like being challenged in AOE pulls and working together with a healer. I rather have fun on the job and actually think about my mitigations rather then just heal up to full with a 25 second CD that lasts 8s, I think its more fun when I'm actually cycling my mitigations.

I'm not going to debate if DRK's the "worst tank" I've not seen anyone struggle because of playing DRK I've seen people complain that it lacks sustain but also people brag about how good it is defensively, some pain points can be fixed such as giving Oblation life steal (which would be really nice to make that skill more then just a 10% mit), Dark Mind and Missionary not being magic exclusive, I'm also not even against TBN not being a damage loss here (I'm pretty neutral on that), I do think it would be nice if the job did get a bit more, but threads like this and the original post seems to think DRK is some paper defensive tank because it has less self healing and isn't as good in dungeons.

My issue is when people act like Dark knight is some sort of difficult struggle in dungeons, when to me I've not had any issues with tanking on it, even playing on white mage I've had no issues with dark knights and when I level other healers I doubt I'll have a particular issue with dark knights and if I do it will generally be because they're not pressing cooldowns.