Dark Knight was bad even in Endwalker but

[Ryaduera]

100%

"DRK is squishy" is a player skill issue. Defensively, it's very solid, but it does require a higher degree of player skill to make effective use of its skills.

This is outright untrue.

We just disagree on the wording then, other tanks being better does in no way mean DRK is bad

If "all of the other options are better" it's bad. Game balance is more important than just player capabilities, it's important because it means that for all jobs to clear the content, all content must be clearable by all jobs. Sounds obvious, right? Well if we have something that is the weakest in its role, then all content must be doable by all weakest in that role, so then what happens when you bring something better than the weakest? It trivializes the role altogether outside of taking yourself in at a disadvantage and choosing the worst one. We literally see this in real time in dungeons when Party members die on bosses, making it more apparent than ever with the new dungeon difficulty, where PLD, WAR, and GNB can solo entire bosses, but DRK just eats crap and wipes it.

Being possible but the worst option is always bad.

[EponaTBHSMH]

If "all of the other options are better" it's bad. Game balance is more important than just player capabilities, it's important because it means that for all jobs to clear the content, all content must be clearable by all jobs. Sounds obvious, right? Well if we have something that is the weakest in its role, then all content must be doable by all weakest in that role, so then what happens when you bring something better than the weakest? It trivializes the role altogether outside of taking yourself in at a disadvantage and choosing the worst one. We literally see this in real time in dungeons when Party members die on bosses, making it more apparent than ever with the new dungeon difficulty, where PLD, WAR, and GNB can solo entire bosses, but DRK just eats crap and wipes it.

Being possible but the worst option is always bad.

Reading this makes me once again understand that the only thing you all care about when judging a tank being good or bad is survivability, which I personally consider to be one aspect that is exceptional or accidental, it really has to be happening to you guys a lot to rank an entire job from just that tbh

-I WILL have to admit that my opinion is largely influenced by the fact that 50% of my gameplay is with friends, and the other 50% are randos that also die extremely rarely

-I ran DT MSQ as PLD and the only dungeon I wiped was Alexandria, I was the only survivor as PLD on the but still died despite my tons of self healing and my Hallowed Ground, the reason why is because we did not know the mechanics (skill issue where game balance did not save me but player capabilities would have)

-DRK does not eat crap and wipes it necessarily, it may not be invincible like WAR but it can definitely take a good 15-20% off a boss solo with good cooldowns, once again that depends on the DRK's player skill

-Calling DRK weak/bad seems to be for this situation only, you cant mean just "clearable by all jobs" because normal content is way too undertuned to have DRK-WAR mitigation difference to be even remotely relevant in whether you clear a dungeon or not, and damage doesnt matter cuz why would you care about speed in a normal dungeon unless you're a speedrunning for the funny number site, you must SURELY have meant "clearable by all jobs without wiping"

[Ryaduera]

Reading this makes me once again understand that the only thing you all care about when judging a tank being good or bad is survivability

Yes... We're tanks. We want to tank.

-DRK does not eat crap and wipes it necessarily, it may not be invincible like WAR but it can definitely take a good 15-20% off a boss solo with good cooldowns, once again that depends on the DRK's player skill

If it can die while a boss is at 50% but the others cannot it is comparatively weaker, yes. I think you're starting to understand the concept, but not understanding why that makes it bad.

-Calling DRK weak/bad seems to be for this situation only, you cant mean just "clearable by all jobs" because normal content is way too undertuned to have DRK-WAR mitigation difference to be even remotely relevant in whether you clear a dungeon or not, and damage doesnt matter cuz why would you care about speed in a normal dungeon unless you're a speedrunning for the funny number site, you must SURELY have meant "clearable by all jobs without wiping"

You're coasting the line of what I'm talking about. DRK can clear all content, yes, but the other tanks tell the players the other party members are optional and serve only the purpose of speeding things up and making stack mechanics necessary and this is in part because DRK is so weak comparatively that the other tanks just don't even care about the content. I leveled PLD first and honestly I couldn't really die my first time in dungeons, including when the party died, and I'd have to either finish it off or let myself die to start over (I always let the party choose) but on DRK when the party dies I'm just sitting on borrowed time. That's where the problem lies. If DRK is brought on par with them, the content can be balanced such that all tanks feel more challenged. This applies to normal content as well as high end content. And honestly, in this raid tier it looks like raid wides are divided between magical and physical damage, in which case you really really don't want to run DRK with GNB and if that's how it is, why would you ever pick DRK? It's less tanky, it offers less damage, and can't main tank as efficiently as WAR/PLD. The problem with DRK being the worst tank is a lot bigger than feeling slightly bad to play sometimes and more that there's no real reason to choose it outside of liking it on a personal level. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that DRK is the only reason content is so easy on the other tanks, but it would be so much easier to balance out content if all tanks were within equal grounds. It was said somewhere that 7.0 the team would focus on encounter design... I'd hate to be the guy sitting there asking if DRK will do well in it.

I'm a little confused. You don't care about tankiness, you don't care about damage, what horse do you have in this race? Interesting and engaging design? Because it doesn't have that either. No interactivity with Darkside, TBN being a DPS loss potential, and a bandaid fix to Delirium being "We have Inner Release at Home" and the overall terrible design philosophy that comes from "Magic damage only" tank as well as the absolute trainwreck that TBN is in the design space of FFXIV. I've worked in Game Balance a long time and it perplexes me that DRK can stay in this state for so long. It's an absolute mess and inconsistent nightmare of a job.

[Ramiee]

Honestly keep DRK the same except give it more damage to compensate. Even though GNB is meant to be the damage tank so think DRK suits the role better for now.

[Tunda]

Honestly keep DRK the same except give it more damage to compensate. Even though GNB is meant to be the damage tank so think DRK suits the role better for now.

GNB meant to be busy tank with higher damage than average

Paladin meant to be sheild job with high defensive and supporting style tank

Warrior is THE healing max hp is high and lifesteal healing per hit kinda tank

Dark knight should have different purpose than those and that should be "EFFECTIVE"

Dark knight could surve as Gun breaker but heavier attacks and less busy
Or Dark sheild tank that can uses sheild to damage enemy

Anyways it should have clear purpose now it is like this:
Drk is like warrior kit with less mitigation but with busyness of gunbreaker AND have to manage MP exclusively

Any one who reads this can understand downsides of playing DRK

[Ramiee]

GNB meant to be busy tank with higher damage than average

Paladin meant to be sheild job with high defensive and supporting style tank

Warrior is THE healing max hp is high and lifesteal healing per hit kinda tank

Dark knight should have different purpose than those and that should be "EFFECTIVE"

Dark knight could surve as Gun breaker but heavier attacks and less busy
Or Dark sheild tank that can uses sheild to damage enemy

Anyways it should have clear purpose now it is like this:
Drk is like warrior kit with less mitigation but with busyness of gunbreaker AND have to manage MP exclusively

Any one who reads this can understand downsides of playing DRK

I think dark knight should be the "revenge tank" go in heavier with the return of damage on TBN and make more mitigations either do damage on hit or provide you with MP for extra damage.

[Oizen]

Dark Knight is busier than GNB in terms of oGCDs right now, optimal rotations have DRK double weaving 5 times to GNB's 2 times.
GNB is more about fitting a load of GCDs into a small window now, which I personally find less "busy" and more of "better have the right skill-speed"

And if your response to this is "what about MIT", DRK is going to be pressing more mitigation than GNB on average due to Oblation and Dark Mind. And DRK doesnt have 20s mitigations to mit in advance like Camouflage.
At Burst windows anyway, at the 1m mark DRK isn't going to be double weaving at all. Which is definitely a design decision made by Creative Studio 3

[CKNovel]

Dark Knight is busier than GNB in terms of oGCDs right now, optimal rotations have DRK double weaving 5 times to GNB's 2 times.
GNB is more about fitting a load of GCDs into a small window now, which I personally find less "busy" and more of "better have the right skill-speed"

And if your response to this is "what about MIT", DRK is going to be pressing more mitigation than GNB on average due to Oblation and Dark Mind. And DRK doesnt have 20s mitigations to mit in advance like Camouflage.
At Burst windows anyway, at the 1m mark DRK isn't going to be double weaving at all. Which is definitely a design decision made by Creative Studio 3

GNB goes around 39~40 CPM, DRK 37~38, that is including mitigation.
In EW, GNB was around 43, DRK 40.5

[Oizen]

GNB goes around 39~40 CPM, DRK 37~38, that is including mitigation.
In EW, GNB was around 43, DRK 40.5

Yeah hence the "at burst windows anyway" line. DRK's average dips hard because at 1m all it has to press is Carve and Spit and maybe one Edge. Dawntrail DRK does almost nothing at all outside of bursts.

But in the opener and 2m bursts, GNB is only going to double weave for Bow Shock and Blasting Zone. Everything else is just a single weave with continuation, or nothing at all.
DRK is going to double weave much more thanks to 5 Edges, Living Shadow, Carve, 2 Shadowbringers, and sometimes Salted Earth/Salt and Darkness.

Thats what busy means to me anyway, fitting a lot of double weaves into a small frame. By Comparison GNB is fitting a lot of GCDs and less oGCDs, but is going to have a slightly higher APM overall because Gnashing Fang and Blasting Zone have a 30s CD so you get to do it more.
But honestly the APM for tanks is basically homogenized at this point overall. DRK has the least busy 1 minute burst of any tank now I believe due to the plunge nerf and MP nerf

[CKNovel]

Yeah hence the "at burst windows anyway" line. DRK's average dips hard because at 1m all it has to press is Carve and Spit and maybe one Edge. Dawntrail DRK does almost nothing at all outside of bursts.

But in the opener and 2m bursts, GNB is only going to double weave for Bow Shock and Blasting Zone. Everything else is just a single weave with continuation, or nothing at all.
DRK is going to double weave much more thanks to 5 Edges, Living Shadow, Carve, 2 Shadowbringers, and sometimes Salted Earth/Salt and Darkness.

Thats what busy means to me anyway, fitting a lot of double weaves into a small frame. By Comparison GNB is fitting a lot of GCDs and less oGCDs, but is going to have a slightly higher APM overall because Gnashing Fang and Blasting Zone have a 30s CD so you get to do it more.
But honestly the APM for tanks is basically homogenized at this point overall. DRK has the least busy 1 minute burst of any tank now I believe due to the plunge nerf and MP nerf

That's highly manipulative to only take burst window.
In burst window, WAR has as much oGCDs as GNB, does that means WAR is as busy as GNB?
DRK's oGCDs are much more flexible and half of them are Edge of Darkness.