How FFXIV state change from ShB to DT?

[ForteNightshade]

What did EW leave for DT? Nothing. It spent all of its patches telling a non-consequential (for now) void story. DT had to start everything up from scratch, something that not even ARR had to (1.0 had Bahamut bring a calamity and ARR starts there).

That DT turned out as good as it did after it had every disavantage is a miracle. DT is excellent, it not only tells us the story it set out to tell, but it also laid out a new story to explore. All that without trouncing everything that built FFXIV, like EW and SHB (to a lesser extent) did.

If this is the case, why did FFXVI not completely fail? After all, it had to tell a completely original tell, do all the setup for itself and build brand new characters. All while, coincidentally, has several of the FFXIV staff team and writers.

Could it be those writers were simply better and the person/team they assigned to Dawntrail was mediocre at best? By your line of logic, no beginning book in a trilogy could ever be good since it has to do all the legwork of setting up future sequels. Ironically, a lot of Shadowbringers works because Ishikawa made several retcons to fix some rather poor decisions previously expansions made. A prime example being both Lahabrea and Elidibus. Neither were remotely the characters they wound up being when first introduced but she was given free reign to alter them. Which speaks to their confidence in her writing talent because they already attempted that with Lyse to mixed reception.

Dawntrail didn't need setup to tell a good story, especially because it wasn't trying to be a continuation like Shadowbringers and Endwalker were. It needed a good writer to craft a cohesive narrative that was mostly resolved by the end. In other words, Dawntrail was more like a single player game since we don't necessarily know if they're planning to do another drawn out arc or stick to more self contained, shorter stories. Regardless, Dawntrail failed spectacularly in that objective. The pacing is completely horrendous even within its own structure, nothing of note happens for several hours worth of gameplay and virtually every character not named Wuk Lamat is rendered a hollow shell of themselves only there to prop up the clear "main character" who hogs the spotlight to the point of strangling it.

Shadowbringers would still be a good, if not an excellent story even without any previous setup whatsoever. Things would have to change to better accommodate that direction but the core aspect of its narrative are relatively self contained. Conversely, Dawntrail is a weak story made weaken by how little desire or respect it seemingly has for any previous character.

[Ririta]

snip

I never said that beginnings can't be good. I'm saying that SHB had more going for it than DT did. You're arguing this point as if DT can't be possibly good, as if what you decided is already a fact of life, then use a single player game that has been in development since 2015 as "evidence" as if MMOs have no narrative constraints at all.

Then you take SHB, an expansion where almost every single point of it has been built up in a previous expansion, and claim that it's self contained and would be excellent even without all the baggage, as if all the previous knowledge that we built up over how FFXIV's world works doesn't matter to put everything that happens in context. I don't even know what to say, do you seriously think the wall of piss or Elidibus' entire existence would have any impact without all the previous knowledge that we gained from the other expansions?

Arguing the way you do I can easily claim that literally everything in existence is, by objective fact, garbage.

[ForteNightshade]

I never said that beginnings can't be good. I'm saying that SHB had more going for it than DT did. You're arguing this point as if DT can't be possibly good, as if what you decided is already a fact of life, then use a single player game that has been in development since 2015 as "evidence" as if MMOs have no narrative constraints at all.

I'm doing no such thing. You completely misunderstood both my both point and the comparison I made. I, in fact, implied the precise opposite: that Dawntrail's issue was a poor writer. Nowhere did I suggest Dawntrail was doomed to fail. What I did say is the story we got was a failure because I believe it was. You're, of course, welcome to disagree but please don't put words in my mouth.

As for the comparison with FFXVI. Did you just... completely ignore why I made that specific comparison? Like I said, XVI has several members of XIV's staff working on it. They had to craft an entirely new storyline with zero prior build up. The insinuation here is Square clearly has talented writers who could have made Dawntrail work as the separate storyline it set out to be but their choice of writer is what ultimately led to such a mixed reception. Put bluntly, I've refuting your stance Dawntrail was at any disadvantage compared to prior expansions due to lacking setup and entirely putting blame on poor writing decisions.

Then you take SHB, an expansion where almost every single point of it has been built up in a previous expansion, and claim that it's self contained and would be excellent even without all the baggage, as if all the previous knowledge that we built up over how FFXIV's world works doesn't matter to put everything that happens in context. I don't even know what to say, do you seriously think the wall of piss or Elidibus' entire existence would have any impact without all the previous knowledge that we gained from the other expansions?

You don't know what to say because you're not actually reading my response and simply erecting a strawman.

Shadowbringers, at its core narrative is about a world on the very brink of annihilation; saved by a hero from out of time and space. It's primary characters are established almost entirely within the expansion itself, namely Emet Selch and the Crystal Exarch. Even Elidibus gets a fairly substantial retcon to better suit the new narrative Ishikawa wants to craft since his previous iteration was fairly one note. Now obviously without the prior expansions setting up the Warriors of Darkness and giving us tidbits on the Ascions, all of this would have to be developed within Shadowbringers but it's hardly a stretch to argue this wouldn't be a difficult undertaking since said setup is fairly small to begin with. We actually don't spend very much time with the Warriors of Darkness, and only Ardbert has any actual character. And like the others mentioned above, his is largely expended upon in Shadowbringers.

Regardless, I literally said all of this. To quote myself, "things would have to change to better accommodate that direction but the core aspect of its narrative are relatively self contained."

Once again, put simply, Shadowbringers didn't need the setup and could have told near identical story within itself, albeit with some necessary changes. Maybe they trim a little of the fat to add these new elements or simply lengthen the MSQ. Either way, the core aspects of the story being told are there without needing Heavensward or Stormblood. It simply benefits from them. On the other hand, Dawntrail didn't have any previous lore restrictions to write around or any necessary retcons yet still managed to trip over itself.