To Square: Please keep going with the dungeon design!

[yoshinoharu]

Finally got the chance to experience expert dungeons and I LOVE it!

This is definitely a step up from previous game design.

We have, without spoiling anything:

-Persistent damage from mobs/packs
-Environmental Damage
-Mechanics that require quick reading or reflexes
-Mechanics with small safespots
-Punishment for misplays

All of these are absolutely fantastic and have needed to happen AT LEAST in the expert dungeons for years now.

Going through the current EX dungeons makes me feel like I'm shaking off rust and decay on mental muscles that haven't been used since HW/Stormblood.

Let people actually get good at the game through something that's a step above the difficulty of levelling dungeons. It isn't hard enough that you can't get through on a first try, but hard enough that if you don't know what you're doing, you will have to learn.

I for one, am all for 'Expert' roulette actually feeling like I have to have some knowledge of how to run dungeons and read mechanics. I think they are perfectly tuned to promote growth and learning of the game and am delighted that this is the direction we're moving in!

[SerMicha]

Very much agree. The dungeons in Dawntrail are a step above Endwalker in terms of respecting player's abilities to fail and learn. I'm proud to say I bit the dust a few times in a handful of the bosses, not only the expert dungeons but also the leveling dungeons. That one trash pull in one of the level 100 dungeons with the constant environmental damage on everyone was a welcome surprise and I'm hoping we see that kind of thing more often.

Some of the bosses are still hit or miss, but I'll take just about anything that doesn't result in falling asleep at the keyboard.

I was in a party for a particular instance and someone kept dying. They said in chat "this isn't even fun at this point", and as weird as it sounds, I take that as a sign that the devs made the right decision making things at least a little more difficult. It really shouldn't take 100 levels to finally get to story content that challenges players, but I'm glad we got to this point at all.

[PorxiesRCute]

I agree. Dawntrail's dungeons were a lot of fun. But please also keep a strict item level sync on them; that's half the problem with old dungeons being unfun.

[CatWeazle]

I'll throw an unpopular opinion in here: For me as a casual player, the leveling dungeons were hard, but doable; But I did one level 100 dungeon and it was a frustrating wipe-fest, so the high level dungeons are one more thing I won't do anymore in this game.

I'm not against hard content, but it should always be optional. I for one was perfectly happy with the difficulty of the EW-dungeons, for me that difficulty does not need to be any higher. Therefore I'd say give the players who want a big challenge an "expert"-version of the dungeons and us filthy casuals an easier one, so we can enjoy the content too.

[Minali]

I loved the dungeons as well, there were many interesting mechanics and combinations of mechanics. Played MSQ as scholar and it most certainly kept me on my toes.

That said, we still have to watch and see how they will hold up long term. I played during Early Access and we're still in release week. We'll see how they feel once more people know how to handle things. (I assume once 3 of 4 people know the mechanics it's also going to be a bit more smoother for people who don't appreciate this difficulty level.) When I played the story dungeons with two first timer friends after I and the fourth one have been in there a few times already, things were a lot smoother (but not boring) already.
A proper level sync would definitely be appreciated, especially for the X0 dungeons. Either way it is going into the right direction.

[Estguard]

I'm fine with this if they make how the game is currently the "expert" side. I'm honestly tired of hard and would like NPC's or the option to make the msq VERY easy. Literally half how hard it is now. Dungeon design in my personal opinion is over the comfortability level. But honestly who cares im the minority.

[Aniya_Estlihn]

I for one was perfectly happy with the difficulty of the EW-dungeons, for me that difficulty does not need to be any higher.

Endwalker has some of the easiest dungeons they've ever implemented. Naoki Yoshida even admitted at PAX East that he was falling asleep playing his own game when doing expert dungeons in Endwalker.
These new dungeons are not hard, but they do require you to pay attention and actually learn fights, which is the bare minimum that should be required in any piece of content in an MMO.

Wiping in content is not "anti casual", never has been and where that mindset came from is beyond me, but its wrong and not something anyone should claim as fact.

You wipe, you get better, learn what you did wrong and eventually it becomes second nature.
That is the core experience of playing an MMO, something this game has lacked for ages.

[Connor]

At level 100 / Expert dungeons, the bosses themselves are all fun (except Leonogg, screw that guy lol). Though, they don’t hit very hard unless someone starts collecting vuln stacks. Though it does feel like there’s more ‘mechanics’ (mainly avoidable ones).

The mobs in-between bosses though feel like they’re there just because they have to be and not to actually serve any purpose. Beyond the very occasional aoe they all hit like wet noodles, so all I ever get to do is spam Art of War and do Recitation+Excogitation. Though secretly, I sometimes do Recitation+Protraction+Adloquium to artificially give myself more to heal lol (compared to using Excogitation and having nothing to do for 45 seconds because tanks have so much self-heals they often won’t reach 50% lol).

Tbh beyond the extra boss aoes I fear once players have better gear the dungeons will feel exactly the same as Endwalker’s

[Ori]

I disagree. This made the game very uninviting and overly difficult for someone who has not played in years.

And with that I say what I always say in these situations. Why not both.

Why not an easy mode with 1/2 the mechanics and less punishment for failure for those of us still getting the hang of things. Also some of us learn differently and find different things rewarding and frustrating.

I do not feel accomplishment or joy completing these dungeons. I feel anger that I had to deal with them at this level so soon. And fear the next dungeon or encounter will be a wall that ends my ability to progress at all.

I do not want to take away from other's enjoyment of the game at all. So I see no reason why a different mode can't exist for both MSQ progression and learning. Give me less XP, less rewards, whatever. Maybe also add something so I can see future mechanics and some sort of feedback about how I would have done IF I was in a more difficult mode.

Again it feels like a win win. Story focused players get easy mode. And those of use who learn differently and find enjoyment different from other players win as well.

[CatWeazle]

Endwalker has some of the easiest dungeons they've ever implemented. Naoki Yoshida even admitted at PAX East that he was falling asleep playing his own game when doing expert dungeons in Endwalker.
These new dungeons are not hard, but they do require you to pay attention and actually learn fights, which is the bare minimum that should be required in any piece of content in an MMO.

Wiping in content is not "anti casual", never has been and where that mindset came from is beyond me, but its wrong and not something anyone should claim as fact.

You wipe, you get better, learn what you did wrong and eventually it becomes second nature.
That is the core experience of playing an MMO, something this game has lacked for ages.

Well, it is not wrong for me ... but ok, then call me "noob" for all I care (I might actually be one, even after all this playtime). But I can explain to you where I'm coming from.

I play a game to be entertained, not to be challenged. A little bit is fine, too much and I won't do that content or quit the game altogether. For me, playing a game is purely for entertainment and fun, to relax and free my head from work related things. Final Fantasy is such a great game for me, because the story dungeons (and even the high level ones up to EW) were absolutely doable for me, even though I'm certainly not a very good player. I had fun. So I was in a good place, I enjoed a good story (up to EW anyways, Dawntrail is not really a good story), could do the "normal" dungeons which were not very challenging, and others who wanted a more difficult challenge could do savage, extreme trials, ultimates and whatnot. All good.

Now we have the situation that the difficulty level is being increased because for some people (maybe most of them) it's more fun. Fine, for me its not, so I'm happy not to do those dungeons if they're optional. You guys can knock yourself out. However, if the dungeons I am forced to do (story dungeons) get the same difficulty level as the current expert-dungeons, I might have a problem progressing in the MSQ. And that would be sad, because I love the game and the people here.

I'm playing this game because it's accessible and fun for everyone, even for someone like me, who does not want to become extremely good in playing a certain job or to die eight times in a dungeon before I get the mechanics of the bosses right enough to maybe not die. I just want to have fun like everyone else. Just that for me the fun lies not in a higher difficulty of dungeons.

*sigh* ... maybe I should go and play minesweeper ... but I enjoy playing with all the people her too much