Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[Ragnell]

First off, I want to say that the dungeons, bosses, environments, music, graphics, and gameplay are excellent. However, my primary gripe is with the main story quest (MSQ). The pacing and the main character, Wuk Lamat, were not to my liking. I personally prefer more character agency. This type of storytelling feels very reminiscent of World of Warcraft, where players mostly stand back while NPCs drive the narrative.

I appreciate all the hard work the main scenario team put into crafting this experience, and I want them to know that. While I don't expect perfection, I simply didn't enjoy the direction the MSQ took.

[ScartPearl]

The sad thing is that I actually liked Wuk Lamat when we first met her but they made her so dirty! I saw a graph somewhere where she has practically 70% of the lines, how boring! It became unbearable and I looked like a little dog on a leash behind her! I just hope that the writers put the WoL back in the center of the script and don't forget our other companions, who have been completely forgotten, poor Krile, they promised everything and delivered nothing...

[Alenore]

The sad thing is that I actually liked Wuk Lamat when we first met her but they made her so dirty! I saw a graph somewhere where she has practically 70% of the lines, how boring! It became unbearable and I looked like a little dog on a leash behind her! I just hope that the writers put the WoL back in the center of the script and don't forget our other companions, who have been completely forgotten, poor Krile, they promised everything and delivered nothing...

What did they promise exactly?

I remember expecting a lighter story focused on helping Wuk Lamat during her competition for the throne, set in the pluricultural society of Tural. I knew I was going to search for the City of Gold, that there would be an advanced society, and that some scions would be supporting another pretender. Oh and Krile had a mysterious earring and a mail adressed to her grandfather from there.

This is exactly what we got.

[honest_psycho]

What did they promise exactly?

I remember expecting a lighter story focused on helping Wuk Lamat during her competition for the throne, set in the pluricultural society of Tural. I knew I was going to search for the City of Gold, that there would be an advanced society, and that some scions would be supporting another pretender. Oh and Krile had a mysterious earring and a mail adressed to her grandfather from there.

This is exactly what we got.

The problem isn't that we got all that.

The problem is that Wuk Lamat is a textbook-case of "Mary Sue":

- Getting the majority of the screentime and dialog, making other characters severely underdeveloped (example: Zoraal Ja's goals and motivations are mentioned in like 10 lines in total) or Gabool Ja speedrunning his redemption arc in order to not steal WukLamats spotlight.

- getting plotarmor against Gabool Ja and half an army and taking him out, despite being fought off effortlessly before.

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

- She is never forced to do a morally grey decision, best example is with the red-armored HokYuj. Before they fight, some random fucking bird just attacks all of the sudden, so WukLamat can heroicly "save" her enemy and befriend them".
Imagine what kind of interessting dilemma she could have faced, if she had to kill in self defense, but her status as spotless hero is saved by coincidence, --> no character progession.

Textbook-case of "Mary Sue".

[Alenore]

The problem isn't that we got all that.

The problem is that Wuk Lamat is a textbook-case of "Mary Sue":

- Getting the majority of the screentime and dialog, making other characters severely underdeveloped (example: Zoraal Ja's goals and motivations are mentioned in like 10 lines in total) or Gabool Ja speedrunning his redemption arc in order to not steal WukLamats spotlight.

- getting plotarmor against Gabool Ja and half an army and taking him out, despite being fought off effortlessly before.

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

- She is never forced to do a morally grey decision, best example is with the red-armored HokYuj. Before they fight, some random fucking bird just attacks all of the sudden, so WukLamat can heroicly "save" her enemy and befriend them".
Imagine what kind of interessting dilemma she could have faced, if she had to kill in self defense, but her status as spotless hero is saved by coincidence, --> no character progession.

Textbook-case of "Mary Sue".

A Mary Sue is a character with no meaningful flaws.

I'm not sure we've played the same game. Wuk Lamat is shown multiple time as someone who is inadequate, but relies on other people to manage to do what's expected of her, or what she wants to do.
- She comes seeking allies (us), and is shown as impulsive and brash ;
- All throughout the first half of the story, she refuses to admit when she's in over her head ;
- She's rather naive, to the point she's following a perfect stranger and gets kidnapped for her trouble ;
- While showing some skill with a weapon, she's easily outclassed by several characters: Gulool Ja Ja, WoL, Zoraal Ja, etc ;

I don't know about you, but an impulsive, incompetent and naive girl doesn't strike me as the perfect ruler or a mary sue.
She grows while travelling with us, learn about her motivations, and mostly learn to rely on other people's strength. This is pretty much why Bakool Ja Ja is now with the Landsguard and she shared the Dawntrail mantle with Koana. She's not singlehandedly soloing Sphene and Zoraal Ja while we have rest.

I suppose you mean Bakool Ja Ja's fight, in which she fills a LB bar out of nowhere multiple times, which we can most likely attribute to her resolve not to lose, save her father, and win the succession (which arguably fits the definition of how Dynamis would help).
On that subject, from like the 2nd cutscene with Bakool, he hints that he has to win for his people. He's driven for a reason. I agree there should be consequences to releasing a literal incarnation of death upon the continent, but ehhh we've handwaved worse as Scions amirite.

About the morally grey decision, we're literaly coming from two expansions of ancients doing pretty dubious choices being either handwaved or directly condemned. The story was meant to be more lighthearted (at least the first half lol).

As for her screentime, this is literally an expansion about helping some girl become the Dawnservant, of course she's going to have screen time.
What would you like for Zoraal Ja exactly, that he repeats us a 7th time that he wants "to unite everybody after they're sick of war"?

Now, if all that is your definition of a Mary Sue, every single Scion is a Mary Sue. We always somehow find the perfect solution for everybody. We (all of us) manage to beat impossible odds.
Did you have the feeling Thancred was a Mary Sue when he single handedly beat Ran'jit, after he kicked our ass?
Or when we solo'd Zenos who wiped a city and us in it? Or when we kill an Ancient empowered by the memories of all those he wanted to save?
Or when somehow, Emet Selch plot armor'd us out of the Aetherial Rift thanks to a magic crystal we apparently used without knowing?
What meaningful flaws does WoL have?
Or Y'shotla for that matter. if we're going with "but WoL is us so it's fine".

If that's the reason you don't like Wuk Lamat, you probably shouldn't play this game and JRPGs because all that is pretty much the norm.

[honest_psycho]

I suppose you mean Bakool Ja Ja's fight, in which she fills a LB bar out of nowhere multiple times, which we can most likely attribute to her resolve not to lose, save her father, and win the succession (which arguably fits the definition of how Dynamis would help).

I don't care about the exact mechanics or about how she defeated Bakool JaJa. I'm talking about that she defeated him AND half an army BY HERSELF. With us just standing besides not doing anything. This is not only plot armor, it lets us, the Warrior of light, look incompetent.

- She's rather naive, to the point she's following a perfect stranger and gets kidnapped for her trouble ;

And why didn't Bakool Ja just kill here right there? No one could have proven it was him, his "smart head" should 100% have made that suggestion.
The fact, that she wasn't killed, is plotarmor.

What would you like for Zoraal Ja exactly, that he repeats us a 7th time that he wants "to unite everybody after they're sick of war"?

No, I wanted to know WHY he had that goal in the first place.
We didn't get ANY kind of flashback in his childhood, or any interaction with his dad that would have warranted his anger.
Also, didn't Krile get a bit of inside of his "dark thoughts" in his introduction?
Why didnt she tell WukLamat "hey, your brother has some dark thoughts, maybe you should try to know him better, like you try to know all the people in Tural, which is kinda the point of this whole fucking story"?

He was underdeveloped on purpose so that WukLamat doesn't have to "know him better" and just kill him, cause its objecitvely the "good" thing to do for her as the Hero. Imagine if Emet-Selch didnt try to talk to us and just did what he planned to do anyways.

As for her screentime, this is literally an expansion about helping some girl become the Dawnservant, of course she's going to have screen time.

I'd agree up until she was made Queen.
But then she STILL got the majority of the lines. She was still around for Erenvilles and Kriles arc there she absolutely had to get some lines in for some reason.

If that's the reason you don't like Wuk Lamat, you probably shouldn't play this game and JRPGs because all that is pretty much the norm.

Isn't it weird that most people, me included, liked ShB/EW, but don't like DT because of WukLamat?
Why do you think that is?

[Ilenya]

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

This just in, having phobias due to things you found traumatic when you were younger is "cringe".

[Alenore]

This just in, having phobias due to things you found traumatic when you were younger is "cringe".

She should just get over it, how can a 6' guy be scared of a 1" spider, duhhh

The Warrior of Light felt almost completely irrelevant to the plot this time. It seemed Wuk Lamat would become Hokage regardless of our involvement. Additionally, the pacing is much worse compared to Heavensward, especially from a gameplay standpoint. In Heavensward, it took around 2-3 hours to reach the first dungeon, Dusk Vigil, while in Dawntrail, it took closer to 4-5 hours. Although the developers delivered on some promises, they mentioned they would try something else if players didn't like it.

I'm asking for something else. Instead of another ham sandwich, give us more flavor and texture, like a BLT on artisanal bread with ripe lettuce and tomatoes.

I'm not sure what the gameplay has to do with the story, this is the lore section. This is a valid complaint, but this is not the subject.

What did they promise to do and didn't?

I don't really understand your argument about player agency, either. I don't remember deciding much in ShB. G'raha and Emet chose most of what happened to us, and we respond to events. But WoL has pretty much as much agency in what they do as the Champion in WoW : Eikon Slayer, bearer of the Heart of Azeroth. Warrior of Light, Mawwalker. Champion of Azeroth, Champion who went to the edge of the universe.

If the point is, it seemed that we could only clear fights because NPC helped us (last trial perhaps?), it's a common occurrence. The Scions were with us against Hades, Zenos plus the prayers for Endsinger, Hydaelyn for Ultima / Lahabrea, etc.

[llew821]

The problem isn't that we got all that.

The problem is that Wuk Lamat is a textbook-case of "Mary Sue":

- Getting the majority of the screentime and dialog, making other characters severely underdeveloped (example: Zoraal Ja's goals and motivations are mentioned in like 10 lines in total) or Gabool Ja speedrunning his redemption arc in order to not steal WukLamats spotlight.

- getting plotarmor against Gabool Ja and half an army and taking him out, despite being fought off effortlessly before.

- No serious characterflaws (not likeing alpacas or being seasick doesnt count, or is even more embarassing, considering she's a 6'6 buff warrior, absolute cringe)

- She is never forced to do a morally grey decision, best example is with the red-armored HokYuj. Before they fight, some random fucking bird just attacks all of the sudden, so WukLamat can heroicly "save" her enemy and befriend them".
Imagine what kind of interessting dilemma she could have faced, if she had to kill in self defense, but her status as spotless hero is saved by coincidence, --> no character progession.

Textbook-case of "Mary Sue".

couldn’t agree more