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  1. #61
    Player Isala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    866
    Character
    Isala Zuntrios
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by koichiresh View Post
    Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
    Nobody complained about that and yet because we aren't the main character in FFXIV just once people are up in a frenzy about it. I guess it makes sense, considering our character has been the spotlight for the base game and 4 expansions. (To add...we do live in a generation with a lot of people with main character syndrome (jk... but kind of not really lol))

    Personally, I prefer being a side character so it doesn't bother me too much, but I know some people want to be the center of every epic tale in the game.

    My only thought is that if multiple characters were being utilized in FFXI as main characters simultaneously (similar to the Scions) then I can see how that would feel different than Wuk Lamat being the pan ultimate character we need to care about. However, if there were any expansions or storylines solely revolving around a character in that game and you enjoyed it and now all of a sudden you're critical of a new character being in the spotlight for DT, then I think it all boils down to script writing and dialogue.
    I've explained this in other places, but Writing 101 is to not replace your main characters with an unestablished character, and do NOT establish said characters at the expense of your main characters.

    Take, for instance, the Lord of the Rings. That series has several secondary characters, some of which get even more time than Frodo and Sam. But the series took the time to flesh them out before that point. You know Gandalf, Pippin, and Merry. You understand Aragon, Legolas, and Gimli. They don't just drop a random dude on you, and push the characters you've known into the background.

    That is Wuk Lamat in a nutshell. To use a different comparison, let's use the Harry Potter series. It seems like a fitting comparison. 7 books, and DT is 7.0. Let's say you read 6 books, all about Harry's adventures, and struggles to defeat Voldemort. Book 7, is suddenly about a character mentioned in a single chapter at the end of book six. And in book 7, Harry has almost no lines, has almost no interaction with the plot, and only exists to make this new character look good. Oh, and of course, the new character gets the killing blow on Voldemort, because of course they do.

    That is Dawntrail, right there. A character with no development, no establishment, suddenly taking center stage at the expense of every established character around her. Even if they weren't one of the worst characters in the game, that alone is a cardinal sin of writing.
    (28)

  2. #62
    Player
    Andevom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    711
    Character
    Andevom Vonskivaux
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by koichiresh View Post
    Genuine question here (because I have never played FFXI) but wasn't your character in that game always sidelined during story content? As in, you were just supporting main characters? Cause that's the sort of the vibe of that the game had from what I heard...
    It was a totally different vibe. If anything, The Adventurer's reputation in FFXI was more earned because grinding it up was actually something you had to do before some people would even talk to you (for both side content and main scenario missions). So it had that air of "Oh yeah, we can rely on <your character here> because they've been pretty helpful to others." But yes, your character was never the focus of the story and was mostly along for the ride. That being said, it captured the feel of going on an adventure with the characters very well, especially in CoP which had a nice little entourage involved in the quests.
    (1)

  3. #63
    Player
    Local_Custard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2023
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    379
    Character
    Rhel'a Tayuun
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Culinarian Lv 83
    I remember getting to Solution Nine and being relieved Wuk wouldn't follow me. Then she followed me yet again... It was surreal that I was getting my social battery drained by a fictional character. Meanwhile in StB didn't feel Lyse was always breathing down my neck. Cannot say the same about Wuk.
    (23)
    I love the men in this game

    I finally return to the game! Current goal: getting all my jobs to 90

  4. #64
    Player
    Havenchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    990
    Character
    Avalen Koma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    It's weird that people take Lyse as not a joke character all of a sudden, when we had what 2+ years of her being comedic relief and a joke for a origin, then we repackaged her into an arguably troubled "oh we can just solve it forehead".

    Sorry but the first intro to Lyse starts with Yda and we need to stop pretending like we can forget that she was a joke character for quite a long time just cause its convenient. In that respect, her (in her Yda faze) and Wuk were comparable, if not almost a similar archetype outside of the "family / papa" stuff.

    Wuk Lamat in her first 7 months of introduction is far superior to Lyse in the way she was handled even after 3+ years of development of the character and anyone saying otherwise is ridiculously capping considering to this day most people still think Lyse was handled terribly (even when they improved her in the 4.X patches). What Wuk needs right now, is a bigger challenge philosophically, something that power of friendship can't outright solve. They could have had it with Sphene maybe but that has passed, needs to be something else now.
    (1)
    Last edited by Havenchild; 07-13-2024 at 09:55 AM.

  5. #65
    Player
    Fawkes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,689
    Character
    Fawkes Macleod
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Havenchild View Post
    It's weird that people take Lyse as not a joke character all of a sudden, when we had what 2+ years of her being comedic relief and a joke for a origin, then we repackaged her into an arguably troubled "oh we can just solve it forehead".

    Sorry but the first intro to Lyse starts with Yda and we need to stop pretending like we can forget that she was a joke character for quite a long time just cause its convenient. In that respect, her (in her Yda faze) and Wuk were comparable, if not almost a similar archetype outside4.X patches) of the "family / papa" stuff.

    Wuk Lamat in her first 7 months of introduction is far superior to Lyse in the way she was handled even after 3+ years of development of the character and anyone saying otherwise is ridiculously capping considering to this day most people still think Lyse was handled terribly (even when they improved her in the 4.X patches). What Wuk needs right now, is a bigger challenge philosophically, something that power of friendship can't outright solve. They could have had it with Sphene maybe but that has passed, needs to be something else now.
    Wuk Lamat and Lyse were both at their best in comedic moments. They both should have had more.



    (2)

  6. #66
    Player
    hydralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    1,061
    Character
    Keiho Fukiku
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by Local_Custard View Post
    I remember getting to Solution Nine and being relieved Wuk wouldn't follow me. Then she followed me yet again... It was surreal that I was getting my social battery drained by a fictional character. Meanwhile in StB didn't feel Lyse was always breathing down my neck. Cannot say the same about Wuk.
    The final trial was so good because we finally had 5 minutes without her joined at our hip. Then SURPRISE!
    (10)

  7. #67
    Player
    Karkarov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    91
    Character
    Varian Black
    World
    Kraken
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Compared to Wuk Lamat ...... Let's have another Lyse expansion.
    (16)

  8. #68
    Player
    ZephyrMenodora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,285
    Character
    Zephyr Menodora
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Karkarov View Post
    Compared to Wuk Lamat ...... Let's have another Lyse expansion.
    Not gonna lie I miss Lyse and a lot of the cast of StB personally.
    (11)

  9. #69
    Player
    Ramiee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2022
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,096
    Character
    Grainne Gothram
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 50
    I'll be honest I still dislike Lyse slightly more as she ruined Papalymo and Yda for me. Though stormblood was far more tolerable because she wasn't inserted in every single scene like Wuk is. I had breathing room away from her so I didn't hate my entire time in the MSQ.
    (6)

  10. #70
    Player
    Nadda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    336
    Character
    Nadda Daweel
    World
    Louisoix
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    You guys do realize we are in the New World... For Wuk Lamat.

    You guys are saying you don't like the focus around the central character who is the whole reason we're there in the first place.

    Specially for those of you claiming the arrogance of Writing 101.

    An unestablished character with no development so called.

    Is being established and developed before your very eyes.

    You guys don't even question the necessity of having all the scions along.
    What further development are characters with 10 years of development supposed to have exactly?

    The Twins should have stayed in Garlemald. There is no reason for them to be here.
    Y'shtola up until the invasion should have stayed wherever she was.
    The only cardinal sin - was Graha staying behind on our "next adventure" the thing he wanted to do with us.
    Kriles catharsis is softlocked to the ending but it's not as though it wasn't getting its proper focus.
    Esitinien always plays the JRPG role of Strong character who joins your party at the end which admittedly this time was baited too long so his reintroduction was shortlived.
    Thancred and Urianger are focused enough plenty as is Koana - They are the opposing team. i.e. we're not supposed to see them.
    And the only reason to see them is to allow you to know more about Koana while at the same time soft hint he's gonna be more of a good guy than a bad guy.

    Erenville and his unexplained angst. That's the only thing that isn't really explored or explained.

    So what's the character we're supposed to focus on and develop otherwise?

    Which is the one?
    Zarool Ja? Why? outside Wuk Lamats sibling relationship there's not much there to explore - he's a complete stoic.
    Bakool Jaja? The giant 10 ft lizard equivalent of Gary Oak (with a penchant for kidnapping and releasing powerful demigods)

    But like seriously where was the focus supposed to be other than Wuk Lamat. Your literal and physical - Call to adventure. Unlike other central figures your Aymerics, your Lyse/Hien, Crystal Exarch (while being a call to adventure is relegated to the crystal tower)/Ryne,
    Most of the Scions arcs, Are done. They are 10 years of complete characters by now.
    What's there to learn?

    Better yet when wasn't Wuk Lamat supposed to be there? It's not during the Succession Contest, how are you supposed to write a story of a character coming into their own, if you relegate them to the background.
    Like seriously imagine the corrination ceremony where we spent a quest collecting firewood with Alphinaud.
    Or if the story focused more on Krile the whole time.
    "I'm here because of my Granddad, Boy I sure hope I can find out more about my Granddad; Do you think this Earing makes me look cute? It was from my Granddad, You know I'm hoping we can find out more about my Grandad, Nobody seems to know anything about my Grandad or this earing how sadge amirite?"

    Again Krile is a very mature fully formed individual and her questions are brought up at the right times to the right people like a rational adult. You're on a quest to help Wuk Lamat.
    But apparently having her as the central focus makes no sense to some of you.

    I can properly think of where Wuk Lamats character doesn't really work.
    And that's post killing Zarool Ja. Once we got to go to the "Golden City aka Unlost city aka Living Memory" to defeat Sphene to stop all this craziness once and for all. Wuk Lamat didn't need to be there.
    Unlike Zarool Ja, this isn't a family affair. If Wuklamat doesn't appear then Yshtola whose whole goal post scions is to explore the many different shards and worlds makes more sense... And I don't even like Yshtola. Bringing along a strong guy like Estinien makes sense also.

    Wuk Lamat at the end. Zero sense.

    But other than that which is what. 10 or 11 quests. Wuk Lamat's presence throughout the story was completely warranted. Maybe Erenville could have been written better to bounce off as a character or understand why he's being such a angsty fussy bun-bun the whole time, but as soon as Koana starts getting developed as a character, Erenville's whole gravitas as Wuk Lamat's straight man (comedic term) disappears. Hell we don't even really get a reaction from him when Wuk Lamat gets kidnapped in fact I think he mosey on ahead to the next zone. Like wtf was his problem? But that's not Wuk Lamats fault that happened. It's the writers fault for leaving a thread and then doing nothing with it the whole expansion.

    Like the most unangsty Erenville is - is about 5 minutes into Shaaloni before he's angsty again... then when the dome goes down genuinely being concerned <- widest range of emotion shown... followed by being angsty again. Both immediately suspecting his mother is dead (can't remember her name that's how forgettable she was) exacerbates things by lying, then Erenville has like a twilight zone moment where he discovers "oh my gawd... My Mother IS DEAD!?" Like he was the first one to suspect anything his mother gaslights him into thinking it's a robot being piloted at a distance.

    So if anything Erenville is the poorly written character for this expansion especially since he took on the narration role.

    Wuk Lamat brought us there to help her become Dawnservant for her peoples sake.
    If you compare that to Lyse whom we are with the whole time, For one thing, Lyse herself is a completely unestablished character with no development, the girl has been pretending to be her dead sister for years. I don't know who Lyse is. I know who Yda was... or who Lyse pretending to be Yda was.

    Then is thrust into a leadership position, then as the stakes are at their highest we knee-capped it for an excursion into fantasy Japan to help them stop the evil foreigners (boy I wonder what era of fantasy Japan... This is supposed to be) Matthew C. Perry told them they couldn't be an isolationist country. So we help Japanese Aymeric (Hien) relight the banners of Gondor and save his people from the clutches of the evil Westerners so he can help us do a Pearl Harbor in Ala Mhigo later. This results in Lyse becoming the leader of Ala Mhigo a role thrust upon her she's not prepared for. She doesn't learn any lessons and most of the time is complaining to disillusioned and desperate people that they can't give up! Because Garlemald is bad!

    (And I liked Stormblood and Lyse, Yall are making me look at this stuff the most mean-spirited way because you're not giving Wuk Lamat a chance, At least Wuk Lamat wanted to become Dawnservant, She's not smart but she understands the consequences of what can happen if other people become the Dawnservant, which would ruin her Father's legacy.)

    Our major villains in Stormblood are a dominatrix who doesn't get development until 4.x (almost kills my favorite character from the whole expansion Gosetsu)
    And Zenos whom at the time and many still do consider him to be one of the worst villains we've had of all time (these aren't even my sentiments of the story - But I pay attention to what fans complain about)


    Sigh* TL;DR

    So like again I don't really know how it be better to sideline the main character of the story. It's like being annoyed with Prince Caspian in the Narnia classic. "Prince Caspian" because he's taking the spotlight away from the Pevensie siblings
    (1)
    Last edited by Nadda; 07-13-2024 at 01:45 PM.

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