Lyse vs. Wuk Lamat

[SirShady]

If by x100 you mean you actually experience her rise to power? It's called the rite of succession. Aside from the off screen alpaca mastering (another flaw of storytelling in DT), you actually experience her rise to power. It's just stupid and full of contrivance. But so is nearly everything and everyone in DT.

As far as Lyse maybe my memory is wrong, but it's quite literally "I'm a boss now". Certainly nothing to close to earned, bad writing or not. Her ending feels earned by simple proximity to the plot, not her affecting it.

Wuk Lamat is certainly not a part of 99% of the dialogue either. The dialogue she isn't a part of suffers from all the same issues. Her being a major character really doesn't change much. The xpac story is just mostly weak.

If it's stupid and full of contrivance, then I don't feel like I've experienced her rise to power. I feel like I've read a poor attempt at a character arc from a bunch of hack fan fiction writers. The story never makes me feel as though Wuk Lamat has grown as a leader, yet EVERYONE is cheering her on during the final ceremony. Everyone miraculously falls in love with her. Lyse might have suddenly been gifted the title of the leader of the resistance, but she wasn't coddled by everyone on her journey.

You're right, I'm sorry. Not 99%. I forgot most dialogue not spoken by Wuk Lamat is other characters talking about Wuk Lamat. That's why it feels like 99%. Also her being a major character changes a lot. The entire world warps around her. I could give you a ton of examples but it's been talked to death so I'll just give you the one that comes to mind first...

Wuk Lamat finally runs into some opposition when she meets the giants who want to go back to their days of conquering and expansionism. They're about to fight when, all of a sudden, a bird swoops in from out of nowhere and attacks them so that Wuk Lamat can step in and save them, giving her the moral high ground and preventing her from having to confront the fact that not everyone can be won over through peace and friendship. Thank goodness for that deus ex machina bird or her views might have been slightly challenged. Her Mary Sue writing affects the world around her, not just herself.

So yes, it's crappy writing all around, but it's crappy writing that centers mostly around her. She affects all aspects of the story, because the writers decided that all logic can be thrown out the door in their efforts to make her look good.

[Gortys]

This is pretty much what I am saying. The comparison strikes me as weird. Lyse doesn't have nearly the same ratio of story as Wuk, and the narratives/gameplay are so differently executed and paced. Wuk is also just a casualty of the xpac itself. Lyse is in a (marginally) better written xpac overall where other characters simply outshine her.

I honestly felt like they did Lyse dirty. Was she goofy? Yes. But I never thought of her as being dumb and that's how she comes across in StB.

This is a bit off topic but I find it funny how in some MMOs people will be upset that their character is perceived as "The Champion" or "Chosen one" wanting only to be an adventurer and then in this case if you're adventurer helping someone through their own story they feel like they've been sidelined... Like as Warriors of Light we're the strongest people in the whole world now. People know what we're about, it wouldn't be interesting if we were always at the center of things. I like that things don't have to revolve around me in spite of how powerful I am.

I don't think our character has always been the "center" or a chosen one or the strongest. I'm pretty sure we are trounced by Zenos in StB. In StB the story was very similar to this one in that we were mainly there learning about 2 different leaders and their efforts to unite their people. In HW I don't view the WoL as the "main character". I felt Aymeric was more the focus of the expansion, but again we didn't spend every moment with him. Many people may confuse us as being the main character just because we help these people, but we are primarily an observer who helps occasionally. In both of these expansions we don't get into how their govts will run after all - it's still up to their leaders who we watched. I think ShB is where the story started making WoL as more of the main character as we learn about the ancients, the convocation, and Azem.

As for people not wanting to be called "The Champion" I feel like you are talking about criticism from WoW players? That's more based on how raiding works, how gearing works, how they tell us the choices would matter when they didn't, etc. I don't feel that's related to FFXIV. Many of the people who play FFXIV and said they didn't want to be the main character may have meant just a return to a good story we are just a part of (not focus of) like HW and (for some) StB.

[Turtledeluxe]

If it's stupid and full of contrivance, then I don't feel like I've experienced her rise to power. I feel like I've read a poor attempt at a character arc from a bunch of hack fan fiction writers. The story never makes me feel as though Wuk Lamat has grown as a leader, yet EVERYONE is cheering her on during the final ceremony. Everyone miraculously falls in love with her. Lyse might have suddenly been gifted the title of the leader of the resistance, but she wasn't coddled by everyone on her journey.

You're right, I'm sorry. Not 99%. I forgot most dialogue not spoken by Wuk Lamat is other characters talking about Wuk Lamat. That's why it feels like 99%. Also her being a major character changes a lot. The entire world warps around her. I could give you a ton of examples but it's been talked to death so I'll just give you the one that comes to mind first...

Wuk Lamat finally runs into some opposition when she meets the giants who want to go back to their days of conquering and expansionism. They're about to fight when, all of a sudden, a bird swoops in from out of nowhere and attacks them so that Wuk Lamat can step in and save them, giving her the morale high ground and preventing her from having to confront the fact that not everyone can be won over through peace and friendship. Thank goodness for that deus ex machina bird or her views might have been slightly challenged. Her Mary Sue writing affects the world around her, not just herself.

So yes, it's crappy writing all around, but it's crappy writing that centers mostly around her. She affects all aspects of the story, because the writers decided that all logic can be thrown out the door in their efforts to make her look good.

I've already listed other contrivances that fall into the same category where it doesn't serve Wuk Lamat at all. Bakool Ja ja breaks the rules and even releases Valigarmanda with absolutely zero recourse, and even redemption. He's actually a pretty big ahole most of the story prior to his redemption with cartoonishly stupid writing. I've never seen Zenos vs Bakool Ja Ja. I'm just saying.

Waiting for the day we have a secondary protagonist who is male that is as targeted as Venat, Zero, Lyse, and Wuk Lamat...which btw the story is written acknowledging Wuk Lamat is an unprepared moron for like 50% of the story..

[Nadda]

I don't think our character has always been the "center" or a chosen one or the strongest. I'm pretty sure we are trounced by Zenos in StB. In StB the story was very similar to this one in that we were mainly there learning about 2 different leaders and their efforts to unite their people. In HW I don't view the WoL as the "main character". I felt Aymeric was more the focus of the expansion, but again we didn't spend every moment with him. Many people may confuse us as being the main character just because we help these people, but we are primarily an observer who helps occasionally. In both of these expansions we don't get into how their govts will run after all - it's still up to their leaders who we watched. I think ShB is where the story started making WoL as more of the main character as we learn about the ancients, the convocation, and Azem.

As for people not wanting to be called "The Champion" I feel like you are talking about criticism from WoW players? That's more based on how raiding works, how gearing works, how they tell us the choices would matter when they didn't, etc. I don't feel that's related to FFXIV. Many of the people who play FFXIV and said they didn't want to be the main character may have meant just a return to a good story we are just a part of (not focus of) like HW and (for some) StB.

You do bring up a good point but it's not just WoW which is a popular example many modern RPG games like to put the player on a pedestal.

[hydralus]

As far as Lyse maybe my memory is wrong, but it's quite literally "I'm a boss now". Certainly nothing to close to earned, bad writing or not. Her ending feels earned by simple proximity to the plot, not her affecting it.

Well, the major difference is that Lyse never asked to be a leader. The old guy who died just kinda made her the leader of the resistance because he knew her father. Now what should have happened is someone else go, "What? No that's dumb." But nobody else wanted the job, I guess.

[Nadda]

Well, the major difference is that Lyse never asked to be a leader. The old guy who died just kinda made her the leader of the resistance because he knew her father. Now what should have happened is someone else go, "What? No that's dumb." But nobody else wanted the job, I guess.

I do think many people thought it was strange Raubhan didn't take over the leadership role.

Not my sentiments but it was something that was talked about a lot at the time.

[ZephyrMenodora]

If only it was bad enough to get you to stop talking. I wouldn't have to suffer knowing you exist.

You can just block someone if they bother you that much.

I honestly felt like they did Lyse dirty. Was she goofy? Yes. But I never thought of her as being dumb and that's how she comes across in StB.

While bored waiting on DT I started an alt and played through most of ARR. She was pretty stupid and dumb in ARR. I thought she improved in StB by quite a bit.

[hydralus]

I do think many people thought it was strange Raubhan didn't take over the leadership role.

Not my sentiments but it was something that was talked about a lot at the time.

He was pretty focused on protecting princess potato, I suppose. She had to fire him before he'd go and help rebuild his homeland for real. Man, Ala Mhigo must be a real treasure if nobody wants it!

[1313]

IDC what anybody says, I'm a big fan of both Lyse and Wuk. Most people probably don't even genuinely dislike them, more likely that they just say what other people say and chime in on dissing the characters since other people are doing it, or they simply dislike them because some of the quests that character is associated with are annoying/dragged out etc. It's why I will always have a bit of hatred for alphinaud, because many years ago when I was unwise and inexperienced, I had to walk across like 4 zones to meet with alphinaud when i had 0 gil and no mount. When i finally made it to him, he stood in a room full of people staring at the floor, made me talk to everyone for him, then report back to him while he sat there picking his nose. Kill that little brat off for good and never mention him again.

People complained about minifilia being the secretary of light who never actually did anything besides telling us what to do.
They gave us Lyse, after they changed her appearance (went from face 5 midlander with a mask to unique face midlander when she revealed her identity), who is everything that people said they wanted from minfilia, then they just decided to hate on her after getting everything they wanted. Maybe the players are just misogynists.

So far Dawntrail story is already better than SHB by several units of measurement so large that they are beyond comprehension, and SHB is said to be "the best expansion". All of the dungeons I've done have been an improvement from previous ones. The game looks and sounds better. We got a nice chill questline from 90-95 with lots of exploring and learning about the cultures across the new regions. Lots of pretty sights to see too. I see a lot of people complaining out here but I don't actually see much worth complaining about.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Most people probably don't even genuinely dislike them, more likely that they just say what other people say and chime in on dissing the characters since other people are doing it

Seems like cope. And I'm pretty sure people have a genuine dislike of Wuk.

I found her immediately annoying the moment I set eyes and ears upon her. Back then people argued to see how 7.0 plays out, and if anything I now like her even less.