Make it so the Current Expac MSQ doesn't level you

[Gortys]

I would argue that people want to be engaged in the world, not necessarily with a single story. Take Tam-Tara Deepcroft Quest chain and subsequent hard mode quest chain, did you not find that engaging when you first did it. I agree being forced to repeat dungeons and grind them is not fun, I remember the Aurem Vale runs back to back to hit 50 back in ARR . Again, that's not what I'm suggesting. Have you everyplayer GW2? Each part of the map has it's own little storyline where you do objectives to fill hearts once filled they are filled. ESO does something similar with self contained story lines in points of interest that you go through, this would be a huge boost and a way of breaking up the MSQ which by it's nature is always going to be more cutscenes than it isn't. So have the MSQ be more to the point, with only the pertinent information dumped on the players for the plot and storyline, and then have the world tell the players the rest of the story of that country region etc etc.

I've played both ESO and GW2 quite a bit. GW2's hearts are like yellow quests and totally optional. I do dailies if I want to level in GW2 and even then the leveling is more horizontal at some point.
In ESO the zone quests are pretty much an MSQ. The old MSQ isn't even necessary and feels outdated. And again, there is a different leveling system in place in the game.

It's kind of hard to compare these games since their end game leveling is also different.

Edit: Also, you have been playing the game for quite a while. I have been playing for a while. We know tricks to level faster and many of us are doing fates and other content along the way. I've seen some stream and need to grind fates to catch up even in this expansion. It may not be the MSQ EXP that is the issue so much as the knowledge you have concerning leveling efficiency.

[Malthir]

I've played both ESO and GW2 quite a bit. GW2's hearts are like yellow quests and totally optional. I do dailies if I want to level in GW2 and even then the leveling is more horizontal at some point.
In ESO the zone quests are pretty much an MSQ. The old MSQ isn't even necessary and feels outdated. And again, there is a different leveling system in place in the game.

It's kind of hard to compare these games since their end game leveling is also different.

Edit: Also, you have been playing the game for quite a while. I have been playing for a while. We know tricks to level faster and many of us are doing fates and other content along the way. I've seen some stream and need to grind fates to catch up even in this expansion. It may not be the MSQ EXP that is the issue so much as the knowledge you have concerning leveling efficiency.

I'm not suggesting comparing them. I'm suggesting copying to a degree. Take these features that are considered good features, and implement something similar. Having 30hour cutscene heavy MSQ's 2 expac in a row is a design choice not an accident they can still course correct but they will NEED to do something about DT or it's going to be a real problem, however that's a different conversation.

The point is you don't need tricks, I literally just followed MSQ hit 100 before I was even in the last zone. Only ran the dungeons once each with trusts MSQ. That is fundementally how the devs want the game to be played it's how it's designed. I'm stating this is bad design and the game should focus on direct gameplay not watch cutscenes for hours on end to get level 100 and be able to do any meaningful content e.g experts, raids when they release. By meaningful I mean objectively meaningful, as in there is an actual goal for doing them not just doing side content for shit and giggles.

You can say, well you could just go off and do side content just for fun. But when the barrier to all other content is a MSQ and in this case a bad one, then players don't want to get side tracked they just want to get through the slog that is the MSQ.

[Taytay]

So the real issue isn't even about MSQ leveling the player, but rather the boring slog of absolute nothingness the DT MSQ turned out to be.

Which, yes, you would be correct. However, I don't think lowering exp and telling people to do side content is the answer. Why should anyone have any faith in the side quests when the main story was so sloppily written? Can we really expect anything better from the side quests?

[Malthir]

So the real issue isn't even about MSQ leveling the player, but rather the boring slog of absolute nothingness the DT MSQ turned out to be.

Which, yes, you would be correct. However, I don't think lowering exp and telling people to do side content is the answer. Why should anyone have any faith in the side quests when the main story was so sloppily written? Can we really expect anything better from the side quests?

No the real issue is an over dependence on MSQ for content, DT has highlighted this. EW was the same, however it was good so people forgave it, then the post patch got crucified by the players. Same design philosophy but as soon as the MSQ doesn't resonate with players the game shit out of luck and since you must complete all MSQ's to progress the more you risk creating massive barriers to entry when the MSQ is big and doesn't slap.

ARR storyline was kinda meh, not bad but nothing to write home about. it was the world building through the myriad of side content that made the game (With the exception being AV runs to hit 50, whoever brought up, screw you getting flashbacks ) Every dungeon having it's own story, progressing through areas doing side stories not tied to an overarching MSQ. You never were at a point where you were doing side content thinking, I really should be doing the MSQ right now I've got to get through all that. It was drip fed to you alongside the gameplay you were enjoying as opposed to dumped on top of you. I think Job quests also existing was a factor, I miss them role quest suck by comparison.

[ForteNightshade]

I would argue that people want to be engaged in the world, not necessarily with a single story. Take Tam-Tara Deepcroft Quest chain and subsequent hard mode quest chain, did you not find that engaging when you first did it. I agree being forced to repeat dungeons and grind them is not fun, I remember the Aurem Vale runs back to back to hit 50 back in ARR . Again, that's not what I'm suggesting. Have you everyplayer GW2? Each part of the map has it's own little storyline where you do objectives to fill hearts once filled they are fiinished. ESO does something similar with self contained story lines in points of interest that you go through, this would be a huge boost and a way of breaking up the MSQ which by it's nature is always going to be more cutscenes than it isn't, you can balance the exp so players don't have to grind them, they have the option of what path they want as opposed to being functionally railroaded by the MSQ. So have the MSQ be more to the point, with only the pertinent information dumped on the players for the plot and storyline, and then have the world tell the players the rest of the story of that country region etc etc.

No, actually. I found the Tam-tara quests boring but was far more forgiving of them because it's the very beginning of the game. I expected things to be slow since MMOs usually are. Now the hard mode was good but that's more due to the story surrounding Edda being a massive surprise. Very few dungeon unlocks have anywhere near that level of storytelling. Regardless, what you're suggesting remains arbitrary. It won't suddenly make Dawntrail a better MSQ if we're constantly getting side trailed or level lock. It'd feel worse for the reason I initially cited: I'm doing busywork to then return to a boring story. And if said busywork wound up being more interesting than I'm all the more annoyed at the poor writing from the MSQ. Case in point, it actively bugged me how the Leatherwork Wachumeqimeqi managed to tell forklore stories for all the races in both a concise and interesting manner yet the MSQ felt like a boring slog with the exact same races.

Both Shadowbringers and Endwalker had issues with a lack of gameplay. The difference is they kept you engaged through good storytelling. Granted, Endwalker does drag in the early quests too--Thavnair in particular. Just nowhere near as much as Dawntrail. That tells me the bigger issue is bad writing. While I'd like more actual gameplay, the main reason I was so bored going through the MSQ was because Dawntrail couldn't keep me engaged so I noticed the lack of it far more than I did previously.

[Malthir]

No, actually. I found the Tam-tara quests boring but was far more forgiving of them because it's the very beginning of the game. I expected things to be slow since MMOs usually are. Now the hard mode was good but that's more due to the story surrounding Edda being a massive surprise. Very few dungeon unlocks have anywhere near that level of storytelling. Regardless, what you're suggesting remains arbitrary. It won't suddenly make Dawntrail a better MSQ if we're constantly getting side trailed or level lock. It'd feel worse for the reason I initially cited: I'm doing busywork to then return to a boring story. And if said busywork wound up being more interesting than I'm all the more annoyed at the poor writing from the MSQ. Case in point, it actively bugged me how the Leatherwork Wachumeqimeqi managed to tell forklore stories for all the races in both a concise and interesting manner yet the MSQ felt like a boring slog with the exact same races.

Both Shadowbringers and Endwalker had issues with a lack of gameplay. The difference is they kept you engaged through good storytelling. Granted, Endwalker does drag in the early quests too--Thavnair in particular. Just nowhere near as much as Dawntrail. That tells me the bigger issue is bad writing. While I'd like more actual gameplay, the main reason I was so bored going through the MSQ was because Dawntrail couldn't keep me engaged so I noticed the lack of it far more than I did previously.

Right almost as if the other part I suggested, take most of the lore out of the cutscene heavy MSQ and make it part of side content. Ultimately I'm asking for 2 things, a reduction of scope for the MSQ and an increased focus on gameplay. I cannot see anyway of them being able to do this without bringing in a reduction of MSQ exp. I'm all ears to other ways they can make changes, but just saying, write a better story is not really useful nor viable, while DT is objectively poor from a creative writing perspective, there will be other Expac that are not poorly written but just not something a player may enjoy, tying the games future on this is dangerous.

[Toutatis]

Uh no. Just because you don’t like MSQ, you want to remove XP for everyone. Game would just be more grindy. OP chose to level only one job and does not consider that other people may play differently. By the tine I finished the MSQ, I had 4 jobs at 100: 1t, 1h and 2 dps (1 melee and a caster). Besides MSQ, I did roulettes on role in need, unlocked dungeons with trusts, picked up aether currents and completed about a dozen side quests. Always had a lvl 3 XP buff from the GC (15%) + cheap food (3%).

Many enjoy MSQ despite its pacing problems in DT.

[TaleraRistain]

No thank you. The importance of the story and how lore is integrated into the MSQ is one of the key things I enjoy the most about XIV. There are eleventy million MMOs that push that lore and world-building and other things of importance into side areas. This one is allowed to be different and some of us who ran the gauntlet of those other MMOs over the years greatly appreciate that difference.

Dawntrail's problems are in writing, pacing, and presentation. That doesn't mean those elements that have enriched the story and allowed it to be the main way of leveling your first class need to be taken out.

I don't say this often, but if those other MMOs are offering the sort of experience that you want, please go play those. *Please* don't come here trying to ruin it for those of us who are enjoying those elements in this one. Not every MMO has to be for every single person.

[Kaurhz]

I'm not saying don't give any I'm saying so that you don't just get to 100 by following MSQ, while also reducing how big the MSQ is, spend the resources on the openworld/gameplay. So revamp how fates and side quests work giving them meaning, make dungeons have their own independent storyline again.



You're right, I think removing all lore would be a bad choice. I just mean some of the less then relevant stuff when it comes to lore. That's on me for poor phasing, I mean they should prune the MSQ and far more selective on what NEEDS to be MSQ in particular with lore dumps for random tribes when it's not going to be story relevant again.

The thing is that lore dumps won't necessarily have relevance or reveal relevance until years or expansions later. This would require them to have a definite direction on the story, and in many instances all they will end up doing is directing it based on the subtleties here and there which people ponder about or discuss.

and if I am honest, again, it doesn't resolve anything. All you're doing is shifting the 'problem' from one facet of the game to another, whilst also creating additional problems as a result. e.g., confusion in the lore - or - "Man I wish I did that side-story for that optional piece of dialogue". They already had to mandate the Crystal Tower quests after the fact of what many people consider one of the best stories to hit the game in ShB.

Even if you want to talk about it resolving issues such as pacing - It really doesn't. You could prune everything irrelevant about this expansion, and pour those resources elsewhere in the story, and you would still have major problems, simply because a story-point such as Alexandria should've been an entire expansion alone, if not more. A story point such as rite of succession should have been post-story or a "meanwhile in...".

It was a fundamentally flawed way of telling/delivering the story, and the best way to resolve that is to just... Not do it and learn from your mistakes.

[SirShady]

Terrible idea. I shouldn't have to grind to enjoy this story-driven MMO. The pacing is already all over the place. If I had to go grind in order to go on a fourth fetch quests with Wuk Lamat I would have closed the game and probably never come back.

What I would much rather see is more interesting questing in general. Incentivize us doing side quests by making them more interesting, having them give more worthwhile rewards, and bringing back the good writing from previous expansions. Same thing with everything involving the open world content. Guild Wars 2 absolutely nails it when it comes to designing a massive breathing open world for players to explore and enjoy. I was really hoping that was the direction they were heading towards this expansion, since it was supposed to focus on "grand new adventures exploring the new world" but sadly we're still stuck to the same esoteric boring design.