Make it so the Current Expac MSQ doesn't level you

[GrizzlyTank]

No, just no.

The issue is 100% the writing and pacing. Nothing to do with getting exp

Exp is just a hurdle to keep us subbed for longer.

[Malthir]

No, just no.

The issue is 100% the writing and pacing. Nothing to do with getting exp

Exp is just a hurdle to keep us subbed for longer.

But one of the largest complaints other than poor writing, is the lack of gameplay, the MSQ is ALWAYS going to be alot of cutscenes due to the nature of what it is. The gameplay is the side content/overworld content/dungeons. Although ARR MSQ was meh and the jobs weren't great, it had the best overworld. Dungeons were the best back then with their own self contained story, the world felt like a world. The MSQ having such a forceful emphasis on the game is going to constantly create these hit and miss expacs, if they don't introduce additional content so that players can enjoy gameplay while leveling they will really struggle to keep/gain new players.

While doing MSQ, I did:
-Roulettes and leveled SCH (thus SMN) to 100.
-Sidequests+FATEs+DT hunt bills to unlock rank 6 (leveling WAR to 100).
-Did MSQ with Viper.
-Quickly getting through MCH by roulettes/hunt bills/EW beast tribe/WT.

(For the role quests)

I can also say I see plenty of people doing FATEs and they have gemstone rewards so there is plenty of reason to do them now. You can stop MSQ to do them any time as well.

You're missing my point, all meaningful content is behind the MSQ, which means you have to complete it/progress rather far in it to do any content, The MSQ also give you 1 free level 100 character, that's the mistake I'm talking about. Sure you can stop at anytime and do a fate but the players not rewarded for this meaningfully because at all time it's in your best interest to be doing the MSQ, dungeons also locked behind progressing the MSQ.

My whole point is they need to separate the MSQ from the rest of the gameplay to a degree. Fates and side quest will always been there so players will look at them later, gems are functionally pointless, they are mount and minion grinds that people do once they're max level.

Currently the game is designed to railroad the player through the MSQ, then they can go out and do other things. This creates the problem where if the story doesn't resonate with you the game becomes basically a complete and utter chore for 30hrs. Smaller MSQ with more overworld focus would massively alleviate this.

[ForteNightshade]

But one of the largest complaints other than poor writing, is the lack of gameplay, the MSQ is ALWAYS going to be alot of cutscenes due to the nature of what it is. The gameplay is the side content/overworld content/dungeons. Although ARR MSQ was meh and the jobs weren't great, it had the best overworld. Dungeons were the best back then with their own self contained story, the world felt like a world. The MSQ having such a forceful emphasis on the game is going to constantly create these hit and miss expacs, if they don't introduce additional content so that players can enjoy gameplay while leveling they will really struggle to keep/gain new players.

Being forced to queue for roulettes or spam FATEs due to level locking wouldn't suddenly make the lack of gameplay in the MSQ any better. It'd feel incredibly arbitrary and lazy because that's exactly what it would be. When people complain about the lack of gameplay, especially in Dawntrail's MSQ, they want the story they're actively participating in to give them gameplay elements not have to abruptly pause and do random trials or dungeons for EXP. Frankly, that would make the 90-91 levels worse because spamming FATEs/dungeons can get boring already. In your hypothetical, I'd have to do it... then return to a very boring story segment. I was already on the verge of skipping cut scenes--something I never do. If they repeatedly level locked me, I'd 100% become a story skipper and NG+ it later when I can go through the whole thing without issue.

[Malthir]

Being forced to queue for roulettes or spam FATEs due to level locking wouldn't suddenly make the lack of gameplay in the MSQ any better. It'd feel incredibly arbitrary and lazy because that's exactly what it would be. When people complain about the lack of gameplay, especially in Dawntrail's MSQ, they want the story they're actively participating in to give them gameplay elements not have to abruptly pause and do random trials or dungeons for EXP. Frankly, that would make the 90-91 levels worse because spamming FATEs/dungeons can get boring already. In your hypothetical, I'd have to do it... then return to a very boring story segment. I was already on the verge of skipping cut scenes--something I never do. If they repeatedly level locked me, I'd 100% become a story skipper and NG+ it later when I can go through the whole thing without issue.

I would argue that people want to be engaged in the world, not necessarily with a single story. Take Tam-Tara Deepcroft Quest chain and subsequent hard mode quest chain, did you not find that engaging when you first did it. I agree being forced to repeat dungeons and grind them is not fun, I remember the Aurem Vale runs back to back to hit 50 back in ARR . Again, that's not what I'm suggesting. Have you everyplayer GW2? Each part of the map has it's own little storyline where you do objectives to fill hearts once filled they are fiinished. ESO does something similar with self contained story lines in points of interest that you go through, this would be a huge boost and a way of breaking up the MSQ which by it's nature is always going to be more cutscenes than it isn't, you can balance the exp so players don't have to grind them, they have the option of what path they want as opposed to being functionally railroaded by the MSQ. So have the MSQ be more to the point, with only the pertinent information dumped on the players for the plot and storyline, and then have the world tell the players the rest of the story of that country region etc etc.

[Kes13a]

I would argue that people want to be engaged in the world, not necessarily with a single story. Take Tam-Tara Deepcroft Quest chain and subsequent hard mode quest chain, did you not find that engaging when you first did it. I agree being forced to repeat dungeons and grind them is not fun, I remember the Aurem Vale runs back to back to hit 50 back in ARR . Again, that's not what I'm suggesting. Have you everyplayer GW2? Each part of the map has it's own little storyline where you do objectives to fill hearts once filled they are filled. ESO does something similar with self contained story lines in points of interest that you go through, this would be a huge boost and a way of breaking up the MSQ which by it's nature is always going to be more cutscenes than it isn't. So have the MSQ be more to the point, with only the pertinent information dumped on the players for the plot and storyline, and then have the world tell the players the rest of the story of that country region etc etc.

unfortunately, I would take boring MSQ over being level locked to get to the next stage/area.

[Malthir]

unfortunately, I would take boring MSQ over being level locked to get to the next stage/area.

Fair enough, I'm glad you enjoy that. I'm just saying it will causing problems for the game longevity though. People are currently lashing out at DT over it's poor writing, but it's a symptom of the issue with the game not the entire problem.

One of the first barriers to entry is ARR MSQ, people say things like don't worry it gets really good after ARR. Now they will say, it gets good after ARR, and then DT is bad but push through that. The only alternative is allow free expac skips, don't give them the levels but allow people to just skip an expac if they want. That however will bring it's own issues. So new people wont get involved. You already love the game so it's not a problem keeping you, the issue is without new players MMO's die. Barriers to entries like this are a disease to the games, if left un treated the game will die.

[Gortys]

I would argue that people want to be engaged in the world, not necessarily with a single story. Take Tam-Tara Deepcroft Quest chain and subsequent hard mode quest chain, did you not find that engaging when you first did it. I agree being forced to repeat dungeons and grind them is not fun, I remember the Aurem Vale runs back to back to hit 50 back in ARR . Again, that's not what I'm suggesting. Have you everyplayer GW2? Each part of the map has it's own little storyline where you do objectives to fill hearts once filled they are filled. ESO does something similar with self contained story lines in points of interest that you go through, this would be a huge boost and a way of breaking up the MSQ which by it's nature is always going to be more cutscenes than it isn't. So have the MSQ be more to the point, with only the pertinent information dumped on the players for the plot and storyline, and then have the world tell the players the rest of the story of that country region etc etc.

I've played both ESO and GW2 quite a bit. GW2's hearts are like yellow quests and totally optional. I do dailies if I want to level in GW2 and even then the leveling is more horizontal at some point.
In ESO the zone quests are pretty much an MSQ. The old MSQ isn't even necessary and feels outdated. And again, there is a different leveling system in place in the game.

It's kind of hard to compare these games since their end game leveling is also different.

Edit: Also, you have been playing the game for quite a while. I have been playing for a while. We know tricks to level faster and many of us are doing fates and other content along the way. I've seen some stream and need to grind fates to catch up even in this expansion. It may not be the MSQ EXP that is the issue so much as the knowledge you have concerning leveling efficiency.

[Malthir]

I've played both ESO and GW2 quite a bit. GW2's hearts are like yellow quests and totally optional. I do dailies if I want to level in GW2 and even then the leveling is more horizontal at some point.
In ESO the zone quests are pretty much an MSQ. The old MSQ isn't even necessary and feels outdated. And again, there is a different leveling system in place in the game.

It's kind of hard to compare these games since their end game leveling is also different.

Edit: Also, you have been playing the game for quite a while. I have been playing for a while. We know tricks to level faster and many of us are doing fates and other content along the way. I've seen some stream and need to grind fates to catch up even in this expansion. It may not be the MSQ EXP that is the issue so much as the knowledge you have concerning leveling efficiency.

I'm not suggesting comparing them. I'm suggesting copying to a degree. Take these features that are considered good features, and implement something similar. Having 30hour cutscene heavy MSQ's 2 expac in a row is a design choice not an accident they can still course correct but they will NEED to do something about DT or it's going to be a real problem, however that's a different conversation.

The point is you don't need tricks, I literally just followed MSQ hit 100 before I was even in the last zone. Only ran the dungeons once each with trusts MSQ. That is fundementally how the devs want the game to be played it's how it's designed. I'm stating this is bad design and the game should focus on direct gameplay not watch cutscenes for hours on end to get level 100 and be able to do any meaningful content e.g experts, raids when they release. By meaningful I mean objectively meaningful, as in there is an actual goal for doing them not just doing side content for shit and giggles.

You can say, well you could just go off and do side content just for fun. But when the barrier to all other content is a MSQ and in this case a bad one, then players don't want to get side tracked they just want to get through the slog that is the MSQ.

[Gortys]

So what you are saying is you want to just go to level 100 any way you want even if it means not playing the MSQ? That's what I'm getting.

[ForteNightshade]

I would argue that people want to be engaged in the world, not necessarily with a single story. Take Tam-Tara Deepcroft Quest chain and subsequent hard mode quest chain, did you not find that engaging when you first did it. I agree being forced to repeat dungeons and grind them is not fun, I remember the Aurem Vale runs back to back to hit 50 back in ARR . Again, that's not what I'm suggesting. Have you everyplayer GW2? Each part of the map has it's own little storyline where you do objectives to fill hearts once filled they are fiinished. ESO does something similar with self contained story lines in points of interest that you go through, this would be a huge boost and a way of breaking up the MSQ which by it's nature is always going to be more cutscenes than it isn't, you can balance the exp so players don't have to grind them, they have the option of what path they want as opposed to being functionally railroaded by the MSQ. So have the MSQ be more to the point, with only the pertinent information dumped on the players for the plot and storyline, and then have the world tell the players the rest of the story of that country region etc etc.

No, actually. I found the Tam-tara quests boring but was far more forgiving of them because it's the very beginning of the game. I expected things to be slow since MMOs usually are. Now the hard mode was good but that's more due to the story surrounding Edda being a massive surprise. Very few dungeon unlocks have anywhere near that level of storytelling. Regardless, what you're suggesting remains arbitrary. It won't suddenly make Dawntrail a better MSQ if we're constantly getting side trailed or level lock. It'd feel worse for the reason I initially cited: I'm doing busywork to then return to a boring story. And if said busywork wound up being more interesting than I'm all the more annoyed at the poor writing from the MSQ. Case in point, it actively bugged me how the Leatherwork Wachumeqimeqi managed to tell forklore stories for all the races in both a concise and interesting manner yet the MSQ felt like a boring slog with the exact same races.

Both Shadowbringers and Endwalker had issues with a lack of gameplay. The difference is they kept you engaged through good storytelling. Granted, Endwalker does drag in the early quests too--Thavnair in particular. Just nowhere near as much as Dawntrail. That tells me the bigger issue is bad writing. While I'd like more actual gameplay, the main reason I was so bored going through the MSQ was because Dawntrail couldn't keep me engaged so I noticed the lack of it far more than I did previously.