Make it so the Current Expac MSQ doesn't level you

[Malthir]

I remember that ARR on release was quite like this.
The MSQ did level you, but the exp wasn't nearly enough to follow it all the way to 50- you'd be taking breaks and doing dungeon grinds with randoms on your sever and leves and fates between everything
It's still a little bit like that when you get to 46 msq on a non road-to-80 server

Yes, and it is what built the game. You went out and did things, kinda like an adventurer would, you felt less dragged from place to place by cutscenes and more taken to an area and then left to fend for yourself.

[Kukajoo]

Yes, and it is what built the game. You went out and did things, kinda like an adventurer would, you felt less dragged from place to place by cutscenes and more taken to an area and then left to fend for yourself.

I can agree and disagree. The latest expacs, Dawntrail more than all previous, have felt like watching a movie where, sometimes I have to hold W to walk my ass to the next part before the movie resumes. But I'm not sure looking to the old and dreaming of 'Halcyon Days' is the answer.

Personally I would go far more insane if I had to rely on fates and 30+minute dungeon queues just to progress Yawntrails MSQ, considering I chose to go through it as Viper and thus lacked the privilege of healer and tank queues.

I think the better path is to make the MSQ itself more engaging, to give us more battle instances or more things to kill. The current expac has you feeling more like a piece of decor than an adventurer

[AnotherHighlander]

The sidequests and FATEs are hardly any more interesting.

We just need more creative and bold solo instances or other types of content scattered throughout the MSQ like In From the Cold. Far, far, far more. Like 20 times more.

Would never happen though because this game's resources are being funneled towards dead-end projects like Forspoken.

[Malthir]

The sidequests and FATEs are hardly any more interesting.

We just need more creative and bold solo instances or other types of content scattered throughout the MSQ like In From the Cold. Far, far, far more. Like 20 times more.

Would never happen though because this game's resources are being funneled towards dead-end projects like Forspoken.

Yes I'm not suggesting Fate's as they stand are perfect but the side content and fate's currently are not bad. It would also allow for them to offload alot of the lore building they are trying to cram into the MSQ, which would reduce the heavy amount of cutscenes. Alot of players love deep cultural lore, alot don't having it in the side content is much better, than having long cutscenes the players forced through. Ultimately the aim of the MSQ should be short cutscene's that very precisely drive the plot in a direction then switch over to gameplay. For example. Helping the Vanu area, we should have a cutscene of us going there, then have us have to be a certain level, to get the next quest in the area, this means do side missions for the feather little bastards, you then learn about their culture, the player feels like they are playing the game and less like they are being dragged about by static cutscenes, your character doesn't talk or ever really take action in these cutscenes so 30 hours of you standing and nodding while other characters talk is not great, for a game.

I would like to see them evolve Fates, try for something more akin to what GW2/ESO do, you have the MSQ take you to an area, then lots of smaller points through the area that have their own little story beats you play through doing quests etc, then back to the MSQ, to the next zone. Same with dungeons, in ARR they had their own little story beats, most dungeons were not tied to the MSQ. Then hard modes where you came back did them again at max level and their story and dungeon had changed due to the impact of what you did when you first did the dungeon. That's engaging the player in the world.

[PaleYonder]

I'll be honest, if I couldn't have played through Dawntrail's mainquest without worrying about levelling, and had gotten levelgated sometime in between this slog of a narrative, I would have just put down the game and not picked it up anymore. This is 100% on the writing, and I just wanted it to be over. And I've read that sentiment with others, too.

I also played some of the old ARR back in the day, and while I didn't stick around back then, I wasn't bothered by the sidequesting then because I enjoyed the early worldbuilding, the charm and personality in the side quests and activities, the care put into everything. It was also the start of the MMO, and I didn't feel any rush; I played it like a sandbox game.
But it's not that game anymore, and I don't think those times can be brought back short of just torching everything again and going "A Realm Re-Reborn" - and all that provided the writing gets at least back up to the level of ARR.

And I'm a story enjoyer. I've always watched the cutscenes, I went around to talk to characters between quest stages to hear what they had to say, etc. I don't even have a problem with "Go here, talk to X, watch a cutscene" for the main quest while it's good writing, and it's been that for a long time. I'll also sit through visual novels with no problem. As with others, Dawntrail singlehandedly turned me into a cutscene skipper and made me fast-push the button in dialogue if it was the same thing over and over again. "Wuk Lamat talks about peace again? The sentimental music? There won't be anything of value in this; skip."

[Malthir]

I'll be honest, if I couldn't have played through Dawntrail's mainquest without worrying about levelling, and had gotten levelgated sometime in between this slog of a narrative, I would have just put down the game and not picked it up anymore. This is 100% on the writing, and I just wanted it to be over. And I've read that sentiment with others, too.

I also played some of the old ARR back in the day, and while I didn't stick around back then, I wasn't bothered by the sidequesting then because I enjoyed the early worldbuilding, the charm and personality in the side quests and activities, the care put into everything. It was also the start of the MMO, and I didn't feel any rush; I played it like a sandbox game.
But it's not that game anymore, and I don't think those times can be brought back short of just torching everything again and going "A Realm Re-Reborn" - and all that provided the writing gets at least back up to the level of ARR.

And I'm a story enjoyer. I've always watched the cutscenes, I went around to talk to characters between quest stages to hear what they had to say, etc. I don't even have a problem with "Go here, talk to X, watch a cutscene" for the main quest while it's good writing, and it's been that for a long time. I'll also sit through visual novels with no problem. As with others, Dawntrail singlehandedly turned me into a cutscene skipper and made me fast-push the button in dialogue if it was the same thing over and over again. "Wuk Lamat talks about peace again? The sentimental music? There won't be anything of value in this; skip."

Yes DT clearly has an issue with writing, I agree, but part of the issue is they are loading all the world building into the MSQ instead of letting it occur through gameplay. How many cutscenes did we have where random cultural things were discussed ad nauseam. These could have been side quest, optional story beats. Let me give you an example in the Vanu area, If you didn't have 500 go talk to wuk, now go talk to wuk somemore. Instead you have the entrance cutscene narrated by Erenville, Wuk introduces you to new tribe, then you don't speak to wuk again until you've gain 2 new levels from doing dungeons/fates/side content, it's just the her on the float cutscene, then do some more side quest dungeons fates, then the her being kidnapped sequence, then next area. Not going back to town to do 50 more cutscenes with Wuk.

The MSQ should be part of the game, not the WHOLE game. We have these beautiful zones, but the player never really spends any meaningful time in them. Run to objective wait for 4-5 cutscenes next objective 4-5 cutscenes, do dungeon, next zone.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, that was just a quick example, I'm sure people could come up with much better and more imaginative ways to do it, the point being is that GAMEPLAY should be the focus of the game. The MSQ should be a part of the game the same as side quests, fates, dungeons, leves.

The writing in DT is bad without doubt, EW was written better but still faced alot of complaints and criticism, because the underlying issue is there's been a massive reduction in focus of gameplay in favour of longer MSQ's. This means you have to hit a homerun every single time with 90% of the audience or your entire expac is bad. This is an almost impossible to meet feat, if they had more balance between gameplay and MSQ, the gameplay can carry the MSQ when it's not hitting home and vice versa.

[PaleYonder]

I agree with a lot in how the exposition is handled here, and it should be a lot more organic. I love stuff like environmental storytelling like in Fromsoft or Bethesda games (very different, but they both do that really well IMO), and in the past FF14 managed at least some of that with how it was worth talking to the random sailor standing over there to get a one-liner about his perspective on the dock issue or whatever. I'd like that back. And we've also had quests as part of the main quest in the past that introduced things in more natural ways and let us discover.
When one can trust the writing and overall environmental and activity design to provide that, that's a motivation to pause in between and do something to see more, or if one really wants to see how the main story goes on, then come back later, maybe with a different class. (On that note I wish the side quests gave more EXP to make engaging with the overworld besides FATEs more rewarding overall. And then one can also get creative with quest design there, theoretically.)
I also think one can do different stuff with the main quest.

It's just that enforcing breaks is frustrating at the best of times cause it breaks off narrative momentum and makes it feel like chores or homework you have to do to get back to the story when it should really be fun and voluntary activities you do of your own accord. That's when the story's good or at least adequate.
With Dawntrail, nothing would salvage this negative momentum, it just is what it is now, and the best I could do to even still enjoy the rest of it was to get the MSQ done once so I'm free of having that looming over my head; the MSQ has turned into the chore, and now I can finally go around alone and level things and do dungeons etc.
One exception, the aether currents hunt that I normally resent as a pointless chore was a nice reprieve this time, so I prioritised it in new zones. But then I wanted to get on with it and get it all over with.

If the writing and world design had been strong as usual, I'd have had motivation to run around and explore on my own cause I'd have been curious about the world and would have wanted to see more, and I think that's how it should be. I'm catching up on some old side content right now, and the difference is like night and day, and it makes the state of Dawntrail even sadder.

[Malthir]

I agree with a lot in how the exposition is handled here, and it should be a lot more organic. I love stuff like environmental storytelling like in Fromsoft or Bethesda games (very different, but they both do that really well IMO), and in the past FF14 managed at least some of that with how it was worth talking to the random sailor standing over there to get a one-liner about his perspective on the dock issue or whatever. I'd like that back. And we've also had quests as part of the main quest in the past that introduced things in more natural ways and let us discover.
When one can trust the writing and overall environmental and activity design to provide that, that's a motivation to pause in between and do something to see more, or if one really wants to see how the main story goes on, then come back later, maybe with a different class. (On that note I wish the side quests gave more EXP to make engaging with the overworld besides FATEs more rewarding overall. And then one can also get creative with quest design there, theoretically.)
I also think one can do different stuff with the main quest.

It's just that enforcing breaks is frustrating at the best of times cause it breaks off narrative momentum and makes it feel like chores or homework you have to do to get back to the story when it should really be fun and voluntary activities you do of your own accord. That's when the story's good or at least adequate.
With Dawntrail, nothing would salvage this negative momentum, it just is what it is now, and the best I could do to even still enjoy the rest of it was to get the MSQ done once so I'm free of having that looming over my head; the MSQ has turned into the chore, and now I can finally go around alone and level things and do dungeons etc.
One exception, the aether currents hunt that I normally resent as a pointless chore was a nice reprieve this time, so I prioritised it in new zones. But then I wanted to get on with it and get it all over with.

I see what you're saying and I agree with more overworld story telling, I just don't see anyway they can manage to make the MSQ more engaging gameplay wise. They could try by adding more and more solo duties into it. Ultimately though it's nature is to be the story which is going to involve alot of standing still listening to people talk. The problem you have is if they make the cutscenes less dense/MSQ smaller and still allow you to go all the way to 100 people will hit 100 so fast and then the complaints of, I've already reached max level the MSQ was too short. There's a tricky balance, I think some forced breaks can be good, but I'm more than willing to concede the point if people can come up with viable alternatives.

[Deejudanne]

if the msq didnt give any xp i'd be upset

[Malthir]

if the msq didnt give any xp i'd be upset

I'm not saying don't give any I'm saying so that you don't just get to 100 by following MSQ, while also reducing how big the MSQ is, spend the resources on the openworld/gameplay. So revamp how fates and side quests work giving them meaning, make dungeons have their own independent storyline again.

I could get behind decreasing the EXP from quests so that there are portions gated by needing to do side content, but the removal of it? Nah.

I don't entirely think massive lore-related info dumps should be relegated to side-content, otherwise you only inhibit the directions you can take the story, unless you really want to start confusing players, or create this whole idea by implied-mandatory side quests. This is a bad idea.

They don't need to get rid of cutscenes and lore information to sidequests. They just need to find more meaningful ways to tell that story which otherwise doesn't involve a cutscene but rather gameplay, e.g., solo instanced duties. This is the healthy medium for it. Putting lore dumps behind optional content only creates a mess. From memory there were a good 3-4 places not otherwise early on in the story that could have been solo instanced duties rather than a cutscene. You could have even created ones which don't necessarily resort to solo-instance combat but rather puzzle solving, or even just generally killing powerful monsters in the overworld which you need to use a key item on. Doesn't need to be novel, just needs to be another way of telling that particular part of the story.

Otherwise all we're doing is solving 1 problem by putting it somewhere else entirely.

You're right, I think removing all lore would be a bad choice. I just mean some of the less then relevant stuff when it comes to lore. That's on me for poor phasing, I mean they should prune the MSQ and far more selective on what NEEDS to be MSQ in particular with lore dumps for random tribes when it's not going to be story relevant again.