As someone who loved it, why I think Dawntrail didn't work for everyone [Spoilers]

[Lyth]

Replace 'Wuk Lamat' with 'Emet-Selch' and this is just Shadowbringers.

This is not even a close comparison.

It's not an issue of whether you like the personalities of specific characters or not. The problem is what was done with Lamaty'i narratively in displacing the player character out of a second-person perspective interactive story. What Lamaty'i is replacing is not Emet, or Lyse, but the player character entirely.

That might be a writing direction change that you are happy with personally, but I'm not at all surprised why the critical reception was what it was.

[Ysera_Brynat]

Thanks for the thread. Respect that you liked it!

I was disappointed with;

• Pacing
• Dialog
• Editing
• Cool characters are sidelined or killed
• Tourist/Tourguide style adventure
• Voice Acting (amount, quality of recordings and performances -- not just Wuk Lamat)
• The scifi area. There's more of the Americas to pull from
• Scifi Area being a weird repeat of Endwalker's story about immortals

[Yuella]

I finally finished the MSQ (took 17 days). I like it. 7/10. The world building is great especially the side quests. Best side quests since Stormblood. Wuk Lamat is Lyse 2.0. I like Lyse so I like Wuk Lamat. They're young optimistic protagonists and looks like some people have a problem with that kind of character. Wuk Lamat's voice actor is fine. She's meant to have an accent. I admit some dialogs are cringy (your happiness is my happiness) but for the most part she's a fine character. I have no problem with her calling out and reviving Sphene's emotional side in the final battle despite having been erased. This is typical Final Fantasy. Defying fate through the power of friendship.

[Cleretic]

It's not an issue of whether you like the personalities of specific characters or not. The problem is what was done with Lamaty'i narratively in displacing the player character out of a second-person perspective interactive story. What Lamaty'i is replacing is not Emet, or Lyse, but the player character entirely.

That's Estinien. You're describing Estinien, this is what Estinien did. If you remember Heavensward, you'll remember that we did jack squat in terms of direct agency in that, too, because it was Estinien doing a bunch of stuff instead. I'd like you to ask yourself: why was Estinien okay, when Wuk Lamat apparently isn't?

Personally, I think it's absolutely fine to 'displace the player character' as the protagonist, because I don't think the WoL is a good protagonist. They don't have enough agency or character to be one; that's not a discredit to the writers or the character, they're just not built to be one, so someone else has to take up the torch. Most of the time, that's a single character over an expansion; sometimes, we get a couple characters tagging out on who the 'lead' is by zone. Shadowbringers and Endwalker were the closest we get to the WoL being a 'lead', and I'm gonna be honest, for Endwalker especially it's mostly because they spend the majority of the expansion walking into places where other people are already doing more important things. And in Shadowbringers it's just a Legend of Zelda-style 'the chosen one is a character with no lines or expressed personality' thing, that I'm gonna be honest, I don't think actually paid off for people, for how little people actually talk about it; even the expansion most about the WoL has other characters take far greater prominence.

[Supersnow845]

That's Estinien. You're describing Estinien, this is what Estinien did. If you remember Heavensward, you'll remember that we did jack squat in terms of direct agency in that, too, because it was Estinien doing a bunch of stuff instead. I'd like you to ask yourself: why was Estinien okay, when Wuk Lamat apparently isn't?

Personally, I think it's absolutely fine to 'displace the player character' as the protagonist, because I don't think the WoL is a good protagonist. They don't have enough agency or character to be one; that's not a discredit to the writers or the character, they're just not built to be one, so someone else has to take up the torch. Most of the time, that's a single character over an expansion; sometimes, we get a couple characters tagging out on who the 'lead' is by zone. Shadowbringers and Endwalker were the closest we get to the WoL being a 'lead', and I'm gonna be honest, for Endwalker especially it's mostly because they spend the majority of the expansion walking into places where other people are already doing more important things. And in Shadowbringers it's just a Legend of Zelda-style 'the chosen one is a character with no lines or expressed personality' thing, that I'm gonna be honest, I don't think actually paid off for people, for how little people actually talk about it; even the expansion most about the WoL has other characters take far greater prominence.

You just have to look at the NPC’s treatment of the WOL after the fact to realise that isn’t true in the level of interaction the WOL gets in the story

Ishgard NPC’s- saviour of ishgard we will never forget you
Tural NPC’s- aren’t you that guy who tagged along with wuk lamat that one time

[Cleretic]

You just have to look at the NPC’s treatment of the WOL after the fact to realise that isn’t true in the level of interaction the WOL gets in the story

Ishgard NPC’s- saviour of ishgard we will never forget you
Tural NPC’s- aren’t you that guy who tagged along with wuk lamat that one time

You're right, that's a huge improvement on the formula. It's still the same formula, just very minorly tweaked.

[fulminating]

You're right, that's a huge improvement on the formula. It's still the same formula, just very minorly tweaked.

Estinien was an actual character/half character with ysael. Not only did estinien have the decency to not butt in for the final fight, but even thoughtfully provided a second round with nidhogg. That’s some really good manners.

Btw I’d say ardbert was the protagonist of shadowbringers rather than the player, player mostly existed as a “future” to contrast with hades’ “past”. But really hades is not as suffocating as wuk lamat, being a a little bit more present than Zenos and not relying on meanwhiles to convey information. You could probably argue that “mysterious super wizard” is as omnipresent as wuk, but 2/3 of the time it’s the muppet squad and by the end he’s just shooting people and still not taking credit for everything.

[Cleretic]

But really hades is not as suffocating as wuk lamat, being a a little bit more present than Zenos and not relying on meanwhiles to convey information.

Emet-Selch is ABSOLUTELY as suffocating as you claim Wuk Lamat to be, the entire final zone is about him and his story to the absolute exclusion of all else; the entire initial pitch and appeal of Shadowbringers completely leaves to isntead focus entirely on his story. Even in Amh Araeng, the only zone he's not a part of once he turns up, uses a 'Meanwhile' to show what he's up to. The Tempest is, without a single exception, the biggest instance of a show-stopping story hijack not just in this game, but in the entire franchise; nothing else exists in that space but his story. And he literally did take credit for everything! He's the guy that established both Allag and Garlemald as Ascian plots, that he specifically built!

You just give him a pass because you like him. After all, you never complain about a meal when it's all food you like.

[Carin-Eri]

Emet-Selch is ABSOLUTELY as suffocating as you claim Wuk Lamat to be, the entire final zone is about him and his story to the absolute exclusion of all else; the entire initial pitch and appeal of Shadowbringers completely leaves to isntead focus entirely on his story. Even in Amh Araeng, the only zone he's not a part of once he turns up, uses a 'Meanwhile' to show what he's up to. The Tempest is, without a single exception, the biggest instance of a show-stopping story hijack not just in this game, but in the entire franchise; nothing else exists in that space but his story. And he literally did take credit for everything! He's the guy that established both Allag and Garlemald as Ascian plots, that he specifically built!

You just give him a pass because you like him. After all, you never complain about a meal when it's all food you like.

An interesting aspect of that is that it somewhat carried over to Endwalker too.

[Magikazam]

Replace 'Wuk Lamat' with 'Emet-Selch' and this is just Shadowbringers.

Except during the big part of Shadowbringers when Emet just stick around us well, he does just that. He just drop some lore on us and bring back Yshtola that one time. 90% of the time he just afking nearby. He don't go around slaying the sineater or solving problem for people of the first. We do that. With Wuk Lmao, it the other way around. We're taking the role of Emet, excpet we can't have long mentoring dialogue cause you know, silent protagonist. so we just end up as a camera (and a bag during the trader people questline at the start of the xpac) for Wuk.