Progression system that could improve endgame (By a lot)

[Wolferey]

i am not here for horizontal progression i am here for vertical.

Well you are playing the wrong game then, this game is pretty much flat progression. You go up 10 levels, it means nothing, now you are back at the start of the road doing the same shit you did the last expansion but your number just says 100 now. We already know exactly when everything releases, what patch number it will be, none of your "vertical" progression gear even matters you just get the next released thing and boom you can do everything again, its all just fake numbers that mean nothing at all. This game would be exactly the same if you just removed the gear and just made it so you couldn't do dungeon 2 unless you did dungeon 1 first. /shrug

[koko-on-da-forumz]

Do you have an example of vertical progression that isn't effectively flat, Wolferey?

My understanding of the idea is that everyone is effectively put on a treadmill going nowhere. I don't like that, but I'm not sure it can be done differently.

[Wolferey]

I mean we are, welcome, you've discovered why vertical progression sucks, with time literally everyone is the same and going nowhere. This game REALLY have you going nowhere, since you can play all jobs and do everything on 1 character. Horizontal would mean that you picked path a, someone else picked path b, we are both lvl 100 but different.

[Wolferey]

Here, let me phrase this better:

Vertical progression is prone to wasting your time. The only way forward is to level up your classes/whatever thing that needs level, to gather enough material to craft the thing etc.
Horizontal progression is prone to meta and choice paralysis. You got path A, B and C, you don't know what is best and everyone says B is best.
You can also combine both, pick path A, now you gotta level it up 10 times, get 10 skill points etc.

Both have their pro's and con's, Vertical feels nice when you feel the time wasted is good, i.e. it has good content to make those levels meaningful to you. Be it a good story, an engaging dungeon, cool looking gear etc. Horizontal feels nice when the path you pick fits your playstyle - if you like the zoomy zoomy swish swosh skills and path A gives you more of those its perfect. Vertical feels horrible when you feel the time wasted is bad, the dungeon is a slog to run through, the XP you need vs. what you get is way too slow etc. and Horizontal in the same way that its not giving you what you want or thought it was, or you feel forced to pick it because its better.

I'm not gonna sit here and say I got a good answer to what is best, I like both so a good combo of both in some way is good for me, but the reason why I call this game flat is because there is barely any vertical progression to do. Getting something to level 100 is just following the MSQ, you get all the gear you need to go through it, grabbing the materials and crafting something doesn't take much time at all, you'd have to be so incredibly slow in this game to make the vertical progression mean much at all really. I had vertical progression for roughly (checks clock) 5 days.

...But once you reach level 100, its basically flat. Do any content, get tomes/do alliance/normal raid, that tiny ilvl bump in the road is gone. That savage gear you got is mostly used in Ultimates and even then its not something you level or anything, its just a guaranteed drop you roll on. Relic weapon is worse than pretty much everything until the end of the expansion. You are on the least bumpy road now for roughly 2.5 years until the next expansion releases.

Again, not saying its bad, flat is good too. It means to progress in any hard content (ex, savage, criterion etc.), you gotta have the skill and patience to do it. Anyone can beat savage in crafted gear because its flat, you just need to learn the fight, get skilled doing your rotation and knowing the timeline, and have the time and patience for it. Many of us like that.

[Tunda]

Here, let me phrase this better:

Vertical progression is prone to wasting your time. The only way forward is to level up your classes/whatever thing that needs level, to gather enough material to craft the thing etc.
Horizontal progression is prone to meta and choice paralysis. You got path A, B and C, you don't know what is best and everyone says B is best.
You can also combine both, pick path A, now you gotta level it up 10 times, get 10 skill points etc.

Both have their pro's and con's, Vertical feels nice when you feel the time wasted is good, i.e. it has good content to make those levels meaningful to you. Be it a good story, an engaging dungeon, cool looking gear etc. Horizontal feels nice when the path you pick fits your playstyle - if you like the zoomy zoomy swish swosh skills and path A gives you more of those its perfect. Vertical feels horrible when you feel the time wasted is bad, the dungeon is a slog to run through, the XP you need vs. what you get is way too slow etc. and Horizontal in the same way that its not giving you what you want or thought it was, or you feel forced to pick it because its better.

I'm not gonna sit here and say I got a good answer to what is best, I like both so a good combo of both in some way is good for me, but the reason why I call this game flat is because there is barely any vertical progression to do. Getting something to level 100 is just following the MSQ, you get all the gear you need to go through it, grabbing the materials and crafting something doesn't take much time at all, you'd have to be so incredibly slow in this game to make the vertical progression mean much at all really. I had vertical progression for roughly (checks clock) 5 days.

...But once you reach level 100, its basically flat. Do any content, get tomes/do alliance/normal raid, that tiny ilvl bump in the road is gone. That savage gear you got is mostly used in Ultimates and even then its not something you level or anything, its just a guaranteed drop you roll on. Relic weapon is worse than pretty much everything until the end of the expansion. You are on the least bumpy road now for roughly 2.5 years until the next expansion releases.

Again, not saying its bad, flat is good too. It means to progress in any hard content (ex, savage, criterion etc.), you gotta have the skill and patience to do it. Anyone can beat savage in crafted gear because its flat, you just need to learn the fight, get skilled doing your rotation and knowing the timeline, and have the time and patience for it. Many of us like that.

I see the current system that it all in vertical which is done very badly.

I feel it should be 50% vatical and 50% horizontal i don't like GW2 approach.

for example patches:
X.0 Vertical
X.1 Horizontal
X.2 Vertical
X.3 Horizontal
X.4 Vertical
X.5 Horizontal ( which will be major 6 months before new expansion releases)

[koko-on-da-forumz]

for example patches:
X.0 Vertical
X.1 Horizontal
X.2 Vertical
X.3 Horizontal
X.4 Vertical
X.5 Horizontal ( which will be major 6 months before new expansion releases)

I don't think you understand what we're talking about.

In GW2, horizontal progression isn't "catch up" gear, we're talking about different build tools, different ways to interact with the world, etc. You would be able to say "No, actually, I don't want the dumb butt fury system on my monk build." There are different gear types that you might want for different builds, but it's been the same set of stat distributions for a long time. If you geared up eight years ago, you're probably still geared up for any build you want to use.

To put it in FFXIV terms, you're kind of asking for a new well-designed, differentiated job every odd number patch. You're asking for collectable alternatives to flight (which, why would you ever not use in ffxiv? it's literally god mode with no drawbacks). You're asking for a brand new stat or skill bonus to be added that changes the game up dramatically (and not just -0.3s GCD for a full SkS build). That's more than literally anyone is asking for.

Endwalker definitely killed any sense of love I had for this game, and just thinking about the lackluster progression available to me, walking that treadmill for another 3 years, kind of makes me roll my eyes.

[Tunda]

I don't think you understand what we're talking about.

In GW2, horizontal progression isn't "catch up" gear, we're talking about different build tools, different ways to interact with the world, etc. You would be able to say "No, actually, I don't want the dumb butt fury system on my monk build." There are different gear types that you might want for different builds, but it's been the same set of stat distributions for a long time. If you geared up eight years ago, you're probably still geared up for any build you want to use.

To put it in FFXIV terms, you're kind of asking for a new well-designed, differentiated job every odd number patch. You're asking for collectable alternatives to flight (which, why would you ever not use in ffxiv? it's literally god mode with no drawbacks). You're asking for a brand new stat or skill bonus to be added that changes the game up dramatically (and not just -0.3s GCD for a full SkS build). That's more than literally anyone is asking for.

Endwalker definitely killed any sense of love I had for this game, and just thinking about the lackluster progression available to me, walking that treadmill for another 3 years, kind of makes me roll my eyes.

There are benefits for horizontal and vertical progressions..

there should be a limit where stat can go or it will be a mess to balance

we want both but in a balance way,

currently I am farming fates for leveling and have currency to exchange..
I have nothing to exchange with..

I have no house.. no crafting and no interest of crafting.. nothing..
this currency is meaningless for me and should have some value for people like mw
there should be some kind of horizontal progression here.

but not that we are using the same build there should be meta shaking changing how new gear skill to see how things can interact with each other..

just to let you know Bloodbath is so broken with Viper but it is almost none existence with jobs like ninja because it can be applied with jobs with physical attacks.

this is kind of skills we need to interact with but without using a button to use.. it needs some activation that could improve how we can plat the jobs and shake the meta which is existing currently in 1 boring form.