FFXIV Healer Strike and the 'How would you fix it?' line

[ForsakenRoe]

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

I understand that, and that's why I've tried to keep the ideas I've made here rather more 'tame' than what could be created (I've seen other people suggest massive overhauls that completely change the core design of each healer). But I do wonder if the perception that these additional systems (which I've tried to balance in such a way that they feel 'optional, for the sake of optimization only') would be too complex for something like an Ultimate, is because we're not used to having them, and suddenly being thrust into the deep end with their addition would feel overwhelming to some players? In a sense, the 'new player' would ironically have a much easier time with the additions, because they'd be learning each system one step at a time as they level, whereas we've got 100 levels of changes thrown at us as veteran players who have already reached the max level

These 'super complex classes' (again, debatable/subjective, I don't think any of these are any more complicated to execute than some of the Tanks) are intended to be for every level of skill, in every piece of content. You can choose to spam Cure2 and get through an EX roulette currently. You can press Succor 35 times in week 1 progression and still clear. These ideas wouldn't change that, or force the player to press their DPS actions more, merely add variety to which DPS actions are being pressed at what times. The example potencies are so close to the filler spell potency (eg Banish being only 40p stronger than Glare) specifically so that the player wouldn't be punished for 'doing the rotation wrong'. It's all intended to be 'tools to optimize around, but ultimately not necessary to clear content', and with it being 'optional', it simply means more potential fun to be had in lower-skill level content like EX roulette

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

Further to the whole 'it might be a perception issue, that too much change is happening at once (from the POV of max level players) with these designs', I think what would help solve that would be if SE had a better update implementation schedule. Let's take the WHM, as an example. Rather than doing all of the changes at once, SE could break it up into 'Phases'. Phase 1 could be implemented in, say, 7.3, which would contain the changes to the Aero/Dia duration, and the addition of Banish as a new attack. In 7.4 or 7.5, Phase 2 could add the lower level versions of skills (Protect > PI, Divine Seal > Temperance, etc), and if SE wants to further soften the Pure/Barrier split, implementing Stoneskin/Graniteskin and the Afflatus upgrades could occur at this time. Finally, in 8.0 with the expansion release (due to the UI elements required for it), the Nature's Vigilance gauge, the spender, and the associated 'refund attacks' (Quake, Flood, Tornado) could be implemented.

Then, the same applies to the other healers. By adding things in smaller chunks, it allows the devs to A: break up the workload so as not to overburden their pipeline, B: get feedback on each portion's balance as they go (allowing them to adjust potencies/CDs for balance alongside the implementation of the next phase), and C: getting 'something' out sooner rather than saying 'wait 2 years and see what happens' would give a massive show to disillusioned vets of the role that 'we are listening, we are changing things, this is just a taste of what's to come', and for a lot of said vets, a change that shows that there's something coming down the pipeline would be enough to get them saying 'Hey, these Phase 1 changes for WHM (Dia duration change, Banish added) have helped the WHM gameplay out, and there's more coming in another patch? Well, this change was good, so I guess I'll stick around and see what they're cooking'

edit (ough):

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

Also, the class complexity is just a symptom of a much bigger issue. You cannot just slap a band-aid (class redesign) and say everything will be fine.

1: I'm not asking for 10 bars filled with spells to juggle. These designs add, I think the highest button count was '3 more than DT has' with SCH. Reducing button count on SCH in particular feels like a challenge, because all of its actions feel very 'it sucks, but used together with other tools, they become greater than the sum of their parts', but there's a couple of things that could go. Like Repose. And Rescue. And to an extent, if MP balancing were changed up to support it, Lucid Dreaming. For WHM, I'd only need to add 2 buttons if SE acquiesced to the plan to add a Barrier-based Lily spender. If Stoneskin and Graniteskin didn't make the cut, then it'd be +-0, since the 2 buttons I'd add (Blessing of the Elementals, Banish) would be counteracted by the 2 I'd remove (by having Cure upgrade to Cure2, and Medica to Medica2 (and then Medica3)).

2: I'm not sure anyone (in numbers big enough to matter) is saying that a high-ceiling class is 'not complex enough' when they 'master' it. EG, in EW, Black Mages at the top of their game didn't say 'oh BLM is too simple for my massive brain', they praised how versatile it was, how many options it had to adapt, etc. I also don't remember anyone complaining that MNK was 'too simple' when TK rotation accidentally appeared in Stormblood, but I do remember A: people who learned TK saying 'its cool that we have an optional, highly technical alternative that gives a very small (and ultimately unrequired) DPS gain' and B: people who didn't want to learn TK saying 'I don't want to learn this highly technical rotation' but not realizing that they could still parse orange with the standard rotation (source: I raided with a guy who did exactly this back in SB), and definitely not needing to learn 'the highly technical alternative rotation' to clear the fights, even in week 1 gear (and in MNK's case, this was back when everyone was going on and on about needing NIN DRG BRD MCH/SMN comp cos 'its meta')

3: SE slapped a 'bandaid' (class redesign) onto SMN because of how people felt about it in SHB, and now it gets criticism for its simplicity pretty often. I think it's entirely possible that the bandaid of a class redesign can have the opposite effect, and raise the perception of the job, if said design is 'good'. Whether the ones I've made here are 'good' is subjective, but I'd like to believe they would offer more gameplay for the healers than what is currently on offer. Additionally, one of the big issues with the current healers is that they have a lot of similarity in their kits, especially SCH/SGE having literal copies of certain actions (eg Ixochole/Indom are same potency, E-Prog/Concitation are the same potency of barrier, etc). So, if a player were to 'master' SCH in the current game, and swap to SGE for reclears, they're already most of the way to 'mastery' of SGE due to that similarity. But, with these redesigns, SCH has stancedancing to master, and SGE has Kardia interplay to master, and the two are much more divorced from one another in their 'optimal gameplay', even with still sharing some actions (eg Ixochole/Indom), because for example, SCH would be able to manipulate that Indom via their Strategies to make it heal for more, or to apply a barrier instead. Conversely, SGE would be able to apply the 'lossless' barrier that SCH can (via Defensive-Indom) to the party over the course of 4 GCD attacks (via a combination of Zoe and Pankardia), but that requires A: being able to hit the enemy, and B: 4 GCDs of setup time. And that means having to think about how you'd do the fight very differently between all four healers, extending the 'Time To Mastery' somewhat

[Kohashi]

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1. Perhaps you didn't specifically say it, but it's a tune that constantly plays when a class complexity topic arises or is discussed. As I said, there are some interesting ideas on paper, and it would be nice for SE to have a lot more creative liberty with classes rather than localize pre-existing ones from other games.

2. The funny thing about BLM is that while doing triple transpose was insanely difficult and you could pat yourself on the back for managing it, the return of it was hardly even worth it. More of a bragging right than anything else. There's a reason why certain classes are less preferred in certain fights. How can you ensure all classes are equally designed and offer the ability to play them regardless of difficulty or fight design?

3. I mean, perhaps it's a simple class but it still delivers what it was intended. SMN is not even all that popular in high-end content, and not because it's too simple but because there are better options that fulfill the designed role better, *cough* Picto *cough*.
As for SGE vs SCH, maybe their core idea is the same but they are really not all that alike beyond the fact they can shield.

For me, having reliable disposable heal/mits is important. Your design might work if the fights were adjusted to accommodate that change but the way some fights are designed now it will simply make certain classes a pain to deal with in the end content especially Ultimates where mechanics are very fast and you need to be precise. Nobody has time to shuffle a million cards and manage 10 bars.

"What does 'sprout' means here, though? Inexperienced? First timer? Or literally players with sprout icon?
I think it's fair to assume when you decided to step into these 'high end contents' you are required to have decent proficiency (not full mastery) of your chosen job, healers included."

I can mean one of those things or all of them. As for the rest, go in PF for a while and you will be surprised with the findings.

[ZephyrMenodora]

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

For a lot of content, baby's first job is the tank. It's just so forgiving.

Absolutely easiest time I have playing is being 'off tank' for 8 or 24 man contents where I am just an immortal half-dps that doesn't need to move out of mechanics.

[Aravell]

I see people bringing up "but what about ultimates?" again, so I feel the need to point out again that ultimates were introduced in Stormblood, when most jobs still retained complexity and flexibility and people managed to clear it back then.

[Supersnow845]

I see people bringing up "but what about ultimates?" again, so I feel the need to point out again that ultimates were introduced in Stormblood, when most jobs still retained complexity and flexibility and people managed to clear it back then.

And honestly if complexity is bought back into the game and makes TOP and DSR harder since they were designed in the “hard encounter easy job” era i genuinely couldn’t give less of a f…… if I tried

I’m sick of the totality of the design decisions of this game being bent around ultimates when better ultimate balance leads to worse feeling jobs

[Aravell]

And honestly if complexity is bought back into the game and makes TOP and DSR harder since they were designed in the “hard encounter easy job” era i genuinely couldn’t give less of a f…… if I tried

I’m sick of the totality of the design decisions of this game being bent around ultimates when better ultimate balance leads to worse feeling jobs

Funny thing is that it wouldn't make DSR or TOP any harder because most of the complex dance mechanics happen during full downtime with no boss to hit.

If anything, old job gameplay would probably make short phase dps checks like TOP p4 easier because you'd have the flexibility to shift 60s and 90s into it without affecting full burst because full burst only happens every 3 minutes past the opener.

That said, honestly, if more complex jobs makes ultimates harder, so what? That's the content you'd want to tackle after you're already solid on your job of choice anyway, if you're fumbling your rotation, you shouldn't be doing ultimate on that job.

[Mortex]

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

I argue any job should be easy to pick up but should have a high skill ceiling. There shouldn’t ever be a situation we’re you have sleep inducing jobs that press 1 button over 100 times per fight. Also these fights are ultimates and savage they are supposed to be hard and a challenge. People should work and learn these fights and don’t demand hand holding for the very single thing in this game.

[ForsakenRoe]

I've tried to say, that additional DPS complexity would theoretically be balanced such that it is mostly ignorable in all content (eg on SCH you wouldn't need to do stancedancing to get the +20p via Offensive, even in an Ultimate). This mentality of 'you need to do the optimal damage or you've failed at the game' needs to stop, so we can get back to 'the most important aspect of clearing the fight, is clearing the fight, not the funny coloured number you get afterwards'. We're playing FFXIV, not FFLogs

But ignoring that for a moment, I would look at the other parts of the kit, and I'd argue (though I might be biased) that some of the changes I listed would make even an Ultimate easier, rather than harder. Take TOP for example. P6 can be a struggle for SCH because it has to stand still to cast its barriers. With the rework I laid out on page 1, a SCH could ignore Strategy: Offensive (because they don't need the bonus potency to clear because PCT now exists/potency 'bonus' is tuned to be 'optional optimization' in all content, even Ult), and instead camp in Strategy: Defensive for the whole of Phase 6. With that, comes a modification to Indom that makes it an instant OGCD Barrier effect every 30s, Excog gets a Galvanise attached that can be Deployed, Protraction can be Deployed, Fey Blessing gets turned into a Barrier (which then gives a regen when it breaks), etc. There would be so many more tools at the SCH's disposal to overcome that weakness of 'I can't really cast barriers very well while I'm running to dodge stuff/get to position'

WHM would have an additional healing action that doesn't cost damage, reducing how often the player has to rely on Medica spam/Cure3 spam, and would have around 60% of its damage actions be instantcaasts, vastly increasing its mobility (especially good for keeping damage up in phases like Hello World). SGE would have the ability to apply barriers without dropping its damage, via Kardia manipulation, and the reworked Krasis would allow it free movement with any action (giving 4 stacks of 'next spell casts instantly'). For both of these, avoiding needing to GCD heal means dealing more damage, and that makes the DPS check more lenient. However, for those SGEs who want to play 'safer' by relying on GCD shielding (eg they don't feel confident they can do the 'set up' required for Kardia-based barriers, and prefer the 'on demand' nature of E.Prognosis), they'd still be able to do that, as the DPS check of TOP was designed with that strategy being 'the only way to do it' back then.

The one that I might agree with, that 'it might be too complex for Ultimates', would be AST. But AST has always been busy to play, look at EW AST with all the Draws and Plays in the opener there. I don't think what I had for AST is necessarily 'more complex' to execute than something like EW AST, but it could be argued that this reworked AST has more 'burden of knowledge' due to needing to know card effects. That, however, could be addressed with UI elements, such as how cards got a coloured border on the job gauge in EW to denote if they're Melee or Ranged. So a card in this system, let's say Bole, would have a symbol next to it to indicate 'this is best on a Tank'. But as a reminder of how much 'simpler' EW AST was to execute in an Ultimate compared to what I posted here, here's an example of EW AST's opener (thank you Fanbyte):



I've not fully thought about it, but my assumption for this redesigned AST's opener would be...:

Earthly Star > Potion > Prepull Malefic > Royal Road > Play Major Arcana > Malefic > Royal Road > Divination > Malefic > Play Major Arcana > Oracle > Malefic (opener ends here, spam Malefic until Minor Arcana comes up)

...Maybe with a Redraw or two in there, depending on how the cards come up. But even including as many Redraws as possible (assuming the worst 'luck' with cards), this opener still has less APM than the EW opener. So the source of this AST's complexity can't be from its mechanical execution, but rather, from having to learn all the new card effects. But as mentioned above, A: Card effects would have 'assistance' in the UI, to help teach new players which card is best on which role, and B: while the job would ask that you learn 6 Major Arcana effects, 6 Minor Arcana effects, and then 3 Royal Road interactions, these are split up into brackets at level 30, 50 and 70. So a veteran player would have all these changes thrown at them at once, and have to learn everything in one go, but the player who picks up this AST fresh, would have 20 levels to get used to the Major Arcana and internalize how they work, before being presented with the next chunk of knowledge (Minor Arcana), allowing them to build their understanding of the Job's systems in more manageable pieces. That's the whole point of the levelling process, surely?

For a Veteran player, who is having trouble internalizing the changes (because they're trying to learn the level 30, 50 and 70 knowledges all at once), luckily we have a system in the game wherein we can go back to older dungeons, and be level sync'd down to a lower level. So, if this system were implemented in the game, personally I'd run a dungeon like Brayflox Longstop a couple of times, to learn the Major Arcana effects. Once I'd done that to the point where I'm 'comfortable', I'd move onto a level 50+ dungeon like Sohm Al (not Dusk Vigil cos I hate it) or The Aery, and practice in that level bracket a bit to get a handle on the Minor Arcana effects. At the same time, being in that level bracket would allow me to test myself and see how well I've learned the Major Arcana effects too. Finally, I'd move onto level 70+ dungeons like Holminster Switch to learn the Royal Road interactions. Throwing yourself into the deep end in a current dungeon, while not my personal recommendation, is also entirely possible now without feeling like you're griefing others, because we can do Trust dungeons too

I do agree that there needs to be some consideration applied to making sure that old Ultimates don't get 'harder because my job changed', because that's a worse feeling than 'old Ultimate (cough UCOB) doesn't have a DPS check now that SMN got reworked'. I just don't fully agree that these reworks would necessarily be enough to create that feeling of 'old Ult got harder'

[ForsakenRoe]

Tiny update to rework AST's Oracle action so that it's not so much of a victim of Crit Variance (I'm tired of seeing it fail to Crit/DHit like a wet noodle). In this rework, rather than a single hit of 860p, it instead deals 12 hits of 60p (totalling 720p), each of which is elementally attuned to the members of the Twelve, as its animation implies (so 2 Fire hits, 2 Ice hits, etc), plus a bonus strike of 150p from your Patron Deity (yes, that system gets to see some use outside of RP with this). Ideally, the VFX of the spell could even change in colour to better match your Patron Deity, allowing players to express their choice with the skill, EG: A player who chose Byregot (Lightning) could have a more purple-looking animation, whereas a player who chose Halone (Ice) would have a pale blue animation. That would mean making 5 more copies of the VFX though so I wouldn't call it 'necessary' per se (assuming the current yellowy-gold one is used for Earth)